Unconscious bias

It does matter although we do all have this. The thing is, once we're aware we have it, we can educate ourselves out of it.

Positive discrimination has won women more rights, it's put a stop to active discrimination in recruitment. It's the only way to even things up. Because without positive discrimination, minorities will always continue to be overlooked for any advantage, promotion, benefit.

Women aren’t in a minority! There have always been more of us.

Example. An older woman, a man of colour and a youngish white man go for promotion. The woman has the most experience, the man of colour is the best qualified, the youngish white man has neither the experience or the extra qualification. He gets the promotion. I've had that experience (I was more qualified AND had more experience) than the Black guy OR the young white bloke. It isn't right, fair and didn't get the best person for the job.

Ladyleftfieldlover

Women aren’t in a minority! There have always been more of us.

We still face a lot of discrimination in the workplace (and elsewhere) though.

GagaJo

Ladyleftfieldlover

Women aren’t in a minority! There have always been more of us.

We still face a lot of discrimination in the workplace (and elsewhere) though.

But how did you come across in the interview? Would you have fitted in to the team? Did they have more to offer in some way that you were unaware of?

To GajaJo

Some people want quotas instead of the best person for the job, if not successful they have to apportion blame.

That was how you perceived the interview Gagajo

Your future employers obviously thought you were not best for the job, even if you did.

Sorry I do not think that there is a place for positive discrimination in the 21st C.

It can create an atmosphere in the workplace when a position goes to someone because of their ethnicity or gender.

The job should always go to the candidate most suited for the role and if applicable be able to fit in with the dynamics of the team.

but fitting in so often leads to stale plae male appts, in their own image, unconscious favouritism or not.
positive discrimination is posited ! on there being more than one applicant with exactly the same qualifications, experience; success points.
in such a case the woman or applicant from the group least represented in the workplace should be appointed.
sounds reasonable to me.
all applications now are or should be assessed against verifiable points, so can be compared.

"Surely if its unconscious you can't be condemned for it"

Let's apply this in a different way and see if we are OK with it. I'm going to use subconscious.

A woman applies for a job, she has the most experience the best qualifications. She gets turned down for a man because even though she doesn't want children, the employer has a subconscious feeling that men do not need or want maternity leave and don't need time off if children are sick.

Is that OK?

Or do we say "erm, absolutely not! That man needs to re-educate himself immediately!

Some ideas need to be left in the past, just because a bias is so entrenched it isn't actively thought about, that doesn't make it acceptable.

Sorry welbeck I am speaking as an employer.

Any prospective employee/s have to be able to fit in with existing employees as well as being the most suitable applicant.

I have in the past taken on someone who was not the most experienced applicant but had a really good attitude with a successful outcome.

Positive discrimination is illegal. Positive action is not. Neither are specifically related to race: they cover all protected characteristics.

As does unconscious bias, which, yes, does matter. It is not about blame, it’s about the consequences (for those whom the bias is directed at, and wider environments) of not acknowledging it and changing behaviour where necessary. .

positive discrimination is posited ! on there being more than one applicant with exactly the same qualifications, experience; success points. in such a case the woman or applicant from the group least represented in the workplace should be appointed.

This is positive action. Positive discrimination would mean appointing a less qualified candidate because they had protected characteristics which are under-represented in an organisation.

I think it’s important to examine our own attitudes and prejudices. Otherwise we won’t learn and things will never improve. It’s not about blame or guilt.

If it’s unconscious bias how do u know if you have it😆
Am sure just about everyone on the planet has it tho, it’s an instinct that has been watered down over centuries but still there, to only trust your own tribe.
There’s no lack of education and public messages about racism.Men not really rating women is as old as time, wouldn’t happen if we could beat them in a fight.

GagaJo

Example. An older woman, a man of colour and a youngish white man go for promotion. The woman has the most experience, the man of colour is the best qualified, the youngish white man has neither the experience or the extra qualification. He gets the promotion. I've had that experience (I was more qualified AND had more experience) than the Black guy OR the young white bloke. It isn't right, fair and didn't get the best person for the job.

the youngish white man has neither the experience or the extra qualification. He gets the promotion

Was the salary banded and was it clearly stated what that salary would be?
Do you think he was cheaper, being less experienced and without extra qualifications?
I've seen that be a factor in decisions made by interview panels.
Unfair, but it happens.

My understanding is that "unconscious bias" is situations like this: Advertising jobs in places that are mainly accessed by white people, testing health equipment on white people and not realising that they will give different results on non-whites, eg an oximeter, designing algorhythms using data that is taken from one group and using them across a range of groups, making decisions based on stereotypes etc. tbh it's a pity that so many people feel threatened by discussing these things as IMO it's not about "blaming" people it's much more about thinking about how things can be done differently so they don't disadvantage others unfairly. Someone mentioned employing a male over a female because they might get pregnant and want maternity leave, to my mind that is not unconscious bias as they are fully aware of why they are making the decision, nothing unconscious about it!

Maybe to a white person who has never experienced discrimination on the basis of their skin colour unconscious bias is not important. But if we genuinely want to build a more equal society we have got to recognise its existence and the way it can disadvantage certain people unfairly and do what we can to challenge it.

Oreo
to only trust your own tribe
A fact of human evolution that is often overlooked, or not understood on GN.

It all just makes my head spin........

black women's maternity care is recorded as being less satisfactory than white women's, in the uk.
this is thought to be due to unconscious bias,
at least in part. eg the myth of the strong black woman, whereby reported pain is minimised, intervention delayed, leading to bad outcomes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_and_White_Supremacy

I recommended this book in a previous thread. It is written for white people, used a lot in work training and groups or individuals who want to

"Structured as a 28-day guide targeted at white readers, the book aims to aid readers in identifying the impact of white privilege and white supremacy over their lives. It contains quotations, terminology definitions and question prompts.[1][2] It received positive critical reception, entering many bestseller lists in June 2020 after a surge in popularity in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and subsequent protests."

its an easy read: its not an expensive book: we had a study group to discuss our own possible bias and how it came out.

I recommend it strongly if you are serious about genuinely wanting to address the O/P as my guess is most people posting on here are white and we cannot answer questions about "unconscious bias" in our own white heads with out help from those at the receiving end of that bias.

And how do we deal with the unconscious bias of class/money which is in my experience the most limiting on atainment/jobs etc.