Abuse of young girls

Nothing with which I can feel comfortable Wilma.

The drama was bad enough, but the documentary gave a much more information about the wider picture. It seems clear to me the conclusion was that this was just the tip of the iceberg. Also, the policewoman resigned, the sexual health worker was made redundant and the local MP struggled to achieve anything. What does this say about our society?

Absolutely right Luckygirl. Is it too much to hope attitudes will change as a result of these dreadful cases

The issue of the reliability of these girls as witnesses seems to go hand in hand with a sense that they were troubled girls whose behaviour (drink/drugs) somehow explains the abuse or constitutes contributory negligence on their part. It disturbs me that the basic fact of their vulnerability (sometimes through inadequacy of the statutory services to protect them) seems not to have been the paramount concern of many involved. Even if they might not be reliable witnesses whose evidence would stand up in court (a problem for the CPS), it was clear that they were deeply troubled and vulnerable and action should have been focused on supporting them. These were mainly underage girls.

Gardenman99 I am disgusted but not surprised by social services attitudes. How awful that you knew this was happening but were powerless to stop it ?.
I have watched and read alot about these cases, sadly it brings back terrible memories for me. I am not at all surprised that at every level these children were repeatedly failed, even in the courtroom! Heads should roll but they won't.......

Social Services are rubbish at protecting the reporter's anonymity. I know of a case where the parents were separated but the father had seen the grandfather touch the little girl in less than appropriate ways and found suspicious messages on her phone and email accounts. He reported his concerns and stressed that anonymity was important to maintain a positive relationship with the mother who he knew would side with the grandfather. To his horror Social Services didn't respect his anonymity and all hell broke loose. The mother's family closed ranks around the grandfather and the father ended up being warned off by Social Services even though he had reported genuine concerns.

I once reported a neighbor for abusing a young girl. Social Services told the neighbor I had reported him. He used to take her into his shed and they would be in there for ages. He was never taken to court and moved out of area.

I'm not defending bad practice but the key issues seem to have been the fear that no Court would see any of the children as 'reliable witnesses. Cases sent to the CPS were sent back with that message. The Courtvscenes dramatised in 3 girls showed the reality of x examination by nine barristers because each defendant had his own counsel. It's devastating for children when a Not Guilty finding is made despite them giving evidence and being accused of lying.

I'm angry that co Chief Constable, senior Health manager, or Director of Childrens Services seems to have been prepared to raise this with whichever government Ministers had key responsibility for child safeguarding, health, education and criminal justice. I suspect each area reached its own conclusions about this national scandal with no central overview or sense of urgency and responsibility. Good staff get worn down by 'the system' and leave, as Maggie Oliver did. Others are made redundant, like Shiela Rowbotham because, let's face it, they keep going on!

not just catholic schools in america.everywhere and not just catholic and not just clergy

virtueonline.org/pedophile-sex-ring-scandal-rocks-anglican-church-australia

www.malesurvivorstrust.org.uk/ore.htm

www.newnationalist.net/2017/04/30/pedophilia-a-requirement-for-uk-ruling-elite/

abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2325416&page=1

Morgana you are spot on. Has anyone been fired, lost their pension, even been prosecuted?
Every single person who knew anything about this and did not come forward deserves to rot in hell. (I am not religious but that phrase conveys my disgust perfectly).
Wouldn't it be wonderful if those who fought to protect these children received honours. It would send a message to society as a whole that they did the honourable thing and the country applauds them for it.

And has anyone lost their job been prosecuted? Be interesting to c whether anyone is prosecuted re jersey.

I agree with all these comments. I need to stress I wasn't saying that political correctness wasn't significant here. It's a phrase I try to avoid because it's often used in a dismissive manner but in this situation, we're all agreed that not wanting to alienate the 'leaders' of the Pakistani community was something the police and other agencies were overly aware of.
Kim 19 points out that anyone with any kind of involvement with children in care or those known to agencies like the police and children's services, will have been well aware of these offences long before the Rochdale cases were publicised. I'm in no way excusing the fact serious criminal offences were committed and no effective action taken by police or social work staff. This was known to senior officers at GMP and other force areas, to senior members of staff in social work departments. I agree with Maggie Oliver's view, this has been put. Ina bucket, under a desk, labelled "too difficult". It's been happening almost twenty years for sure, probably longer. It is still happening.

At age 12/13 I don't think any girls would have recognised grooming! I think the critical difference is that those with good relationships within their families would tell their parents or older siblings, who would hopefully start to suspect something was awry as the grooming progressed. I found one of the saddest testimonies was that of the father saying you're supposed to be there for your children, to protect them.

Totally agree with all posters. There has long been a culture of casual acceptance around the so-called easy morals of often troubled, vulnerable young people - the vile words 'jail bait' come to mind often said with a snigger as though it's some kind of a laugh and gives it a weird kind of legitimacy. If we, as ordinary members of the public, are very upset and frustrated with the shocking stuff coming to light God alone knows how the magnificent Sara Rowbotham and others like her find the strength to carry on. It's hard to know what we can do and how we can help but maybe a start would be to pick up on the kind of attitude above and point out whenever we can that it's completely not ok to label children as knowing slags. A sea change is needed. The horrific abuse of children is as old as time but that doesn't mean it has to continue - we really have to stand up and be counted whenever we can.

I'm very much with Radicalnan in that I'd like to see many heads roll - particularly those at the top - but that will never happen. If we got rid of every one who was complicit we'd probably have very few staff left. I have personal experience of this and the 'dedicated but unhappy' staff just leave. You can only hit your head against a brick wall for so long and whistleblowing is one huge no-no.

If you have access to Netflix you should watch a series called 'The Keepers ' It is about abuse in Catholic schools in America by priests. Absolutely shocking the way it was all covered up by police, politicians and the church. It was only when very courageous women came forward many years later that the story was uncovered.

There are no heads rolling among those who we paid to care for the kids and no records being made by Simon Cowell etc for the victims. There was pretty soon a group set up for footballers abused by their coaches but nothing for those poor girls.

I worked with young people and saw pimps coming to the children's homes, to pick kids up in the evenings and was told by managers, that to prevent the young people going out with them would be 'an infringement of their rights', being in loco parentis I wanted to safeguard those I was responsible for and left.

That sort of abuse is an epidemic but nothing is done. I accept that politically correct influences had a part to play and continues to do so but really social services needs a real reformation it is not fit for purpose.

A few proecutions of the staff meant to be doing the care and policing would focus the minds of those still onn the pay roll.

Chosen not to watch. Too awful for me.

There do seem to be many factors at play here, all of which are unacceptable and very worrying indeed.

- fear of destroying community cohesion put above the protection of these girls
- political correctness
- a devaluing of these troubled girls and a failure to understand or indeed care about their vulnerability
- failures to prosecute on the basis of sex with a minor
- cultural confusions in the attitudes to white girls amongst Pakistani men
- fear of playing into the hands of the BNP

I am hugely admiring of those who ploughed doggedly on in the face of institutional indifference. The are to be commended.

I meant the Times not the Sunday Times, the story ran over consecutive days.

Iam64, I only watched first half hour have yet to watch the rest so maybe I have missed some things before commenting. I do remember the Sunday Times reporter who eventually covered the story in depth, I read it a while back it was an extensive report and shocking. The ST guy said something along the lines of initially he backed off because he didn't want to play into the hands of the BNP and fuel their campaign, but that was a regret. Ann Cryer went to considerable lengths to uncover the truth but was thwarted. The excellent social worker, I believe was sacked, I have to watch the rest of the programme to get the full picture. The policewoman, if I remember rightly, mentioned that it was not Asian men per se who were doing the grooming, but Pakistani men in particular. It is a complex issue that has been repeated in many towns around the UK and quite possibly is still going on. Yes unfortunately we do live in a society where children are sexualised too soon, but sometimes the girls have not been the "all knowing" and around the block a few times that they were painted to be, not that would be an excuse for their treatment, early sexual promiscuity is sometimes a symptom of a disfunctional upbringing. Some of the girls were simply young and naive, I remember reading one girl's testament saying a year earlier she was playing with dolls. It's normal behaviour for girls in school to befriend boys in their peer group and to hang out a the mall at week-ends, some of those friends would be Pakistani boys who lavished more attention via gifts etc. At aged 12/13 many would fail to see the nuances in the grooming it was so insidious and at a later stage they were backed into the situation where the boys would pass them on to older men by which time the situation was beyond their control, they were drugged, abused sexually, tortured, threats made against their family, with no help from the authorities.

I think the denial by all the agencies involved, allowing it to go on for so long, sometimes arresting the girls, sometimes the parents, implies a suppression of the facts in the interests of social cohesion and not exposing an uncomfortable truth, the report in The Times did say political correctness was a factor.

I watched this last night, great documentary. I agree with your comments about Ann Cryer TerriBull but I don't believe the lack of effective action can be put down simply to what you call,political correctness.
Where does that fit with dismissing the systematic abuse of volnerable girls as a "lifestyle choice". This behaviour by groups of men who came mainly from the British Muslim Pakistani community was known to GMP and I expect other police, health, education and social work teAms from the late 1990's for certain. As a society, we sexualise our children so early in their lives.
two main questions remain - what is it about one culture that allows groups of men to behave so sbusivelt and another culture that says out of control, emotionally and psychologically damaged children are making "lifestyle choices" .

A third question - what about the boys being subjected to similar treatment.

The girls it seems were sacrificed on the altar of political correctness, Ann Cryer did her upmost to fight for the abused girls in her constituency but she was accused of being a racist by a few members in her own party. I watched the first part of the programme and have still to watch the rest but found it deeply upsetting, particularly as one girl died, only 13 and the others scarred for life. The good people who were trying to help these vulnerable children were thwarted every which way.

They didn't seem to consider the fact that whatever the girls' backgrounds, however they behaved with regard to drink and drugs etc., they were UNDERAGE. I'm aghast that the defence was able to discredit them in court when their age alone meant they were innocent victims.

there is no such thing as a "child prostitute" they are abused children and the sooner people realise that the better.Victim blaming is what these evil men do so they can be let off the hook..."she enticed me" etc .They are the adult THEY are the criminal