Richard III

Wonder if he ought to have had a Catholic ceremony?

All this ceremony for someone who was almost certainly a child murderer. I think most historians now believe it to be so.

I don't think it's almost a certainty. I'm a historian. The evidence available points to a variety of suspects. Don't forget it suited the Tudors to paint Richard as black as possible.

It's a hell of a lot more respectful than what happened to his body after Bosworth.

What should they have done ?

Not bothered looking for him.
Chucked him back in the hole.
Left him in the cardboard box.
Maybe just buried him quietly without anyone knowing.

I can't see the problem with what is happening. They are even saying prayers for him 500 years after his death. So he is getting what he would have wished for.

I wouldn't turn out myself to file past anyone's coffin, but will visit Leicester later in the year. I understand that I will be able to entre St Martin's for free and view the tomb. I wouldn't have been able to do that in York or London.

Hear here Marmardoit.

What do you mean Whitewave? He did have a Catholic ceremony. For me it was one of the striking features of the events yesterday, that the Catholic and Anglican Churches agreed to work together for the occasion. Here where I live, both Churches used to be at loggerheads when I was a child, and when my parents wanted to get married- all hell let lose! (dad was a staunch Catholic family a 10% minority here at the time) and mum from a Protestant one, divorced with 1 child. They had to get married at the so called 'Christian Catholic Church' which is more or less the equivalent of the Anglican Church. Nowadays, due to massive Italian, Spanish and Portuguese immigration since the war- it is about 50/50- and due to so many mixed marriages- they've just had to adapt to survive- not unusual for a Catholic Priest and a Protestant Vicar sharing a marriage or funeral ceremony- although the battle still rages about baptism!

So it was great to see them working together yesterday- as Richard was (clearly! before Henry VIII reformation) a Catholic, is was fitting he had a CAtholic ceremony imho.

No just sort of just put the idea out there as he would not recognize the Protestant element! Playing devil's advocate really

I'll have to watch the programme on catch-up. The best account I've come across is the book by Josephine Tey, The Daughter of Time. She also wrote a number of very good mysteries if anyone is looking for an author they don't know about.

I see Whitewave- but if you watched the programme, the fact he was pre-Reformation (obviously) was totally acknowledged and acted upon, the ceremony being carried out by Catholics albeit in an Anglican Cathedral- nd very sensitively I thought.

News
The Re-interment of King Richard III

10/03/2015 1:17 pm
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King Richard III

As part of the ceremonies marking the re-interment of King Richard III, Cardinal Vincent Nichols will celebrate Mass for the repose of the soul of Richard III in Holy Cross Church, Leicester on Monday 23 March 2015. There will be a further celebration of Mass in Holy Cross Church on Tuesday 24 March.

On Monday 23 March, just three days before Richard III is re-interred in Leicester Cathedral, the mediaeval Catholic parish church of Leicester, Cardinal Vincent Nichols, Archbishop of Westminster, will celebrate Mass for the repose of his soul in Holy Cross Church, the current Catholic parish church and Dominican priory in Leicester city centre.

In order that as many people as possible can be accommodated safely and the liturgy celebrated in a dignified manner, admission to this Mass will be by ticket only; the ballot for tickets is now closed, and successful applicants will be notified within the next few days.

The following day, Tuesday 24 March, Mass will be offered for the repose of the soul of Richard III in Holy Cross Church by the Dominican friars at 4pm.

This Mass will be open to the public, and no tickets are required. After Mass, the friars will process through the city centre to Leicester Cathedral, where they will sing Vespers, the Catholic Church’s evening service, at 5:30pm.

Mgr Thomas McGovern, the Diocesan Administrator of the Diocese of Nottingham, said:

"We very much look forward to welcoming Cardinal Nichols to Leicester this month for the Mass which he will celebrate in Holy Cross Church in advance of the re-interment of Richard III, one of the last Catholic kings of England, in the city in which he was buried in 1485."

Father David Rocks OP, Prior and Parish Priest of Holy Cross Priory, said:

"The Dominicans of Holy Cross Priory are looking forward to welcoming people from across the world to our beautiful church during the week when Richard III will be re-interred here in Leicester.

"More people than we could have ever hoped for have been in touch to ask for tickets for the Mass which Cardinal Nichols will celebrate on Monday 23 March, which is why we are pleased to announce another celebration of Mass on Tuesday 24 March, before the friars depart for Leicester Cathedral to sing Vespers in the presence of the mortal remains of Richard III. No tickets will be required for this Mass, and everyone is welcome to come along."

I agree vampirequeen about people coming out to watch the show, and I can see nothing wrong with that, but there is a thriving and very active. Richard III Society in Leicester and the people of Leicestershire have a huge fondness for him. It wasn't the people of Leicester who were fighting against him but, when he was defeated and paraded through the streets, it would have been a very brave man to have stood against the victorious soldiers and risked their lives too.

I didn't see York university trying to find him either!

What would have been interesting is before we buried him, we brought him to trail over the Princes.

Trial!!

Thoroughly enjoyed last night`s C4 programme and looking forward to the others during the week. I agree with you Merlotgran I always fancied Margaret Beaufort to be behind the Princes in the Tower mystery. Love my history

Recently we had dinner with our French neighbours and another French couple (Jean Pierre and Francoise).During the evening he started talking of England and its wealth of history which he absolutely adores.Conversation led onto Richard III whom he was extreme!y passionate about it and he had total admiration for the excatavion team and the work they had done and he plans to visit Leicester this summer. A week later a parcel arrived from Amazon containing a book "Richard III. The King Under The Car Park". It was from Jean Pierre. How kind was that? Sometimes we don't appreciate our history, monuments and treasures we have grown up with and taken for granted. It interesting to hear how those from other nations view us.

I also have been fascinated by the part DNA has played in this

I also have been fascinated by the part DNA has played in this

I was interested to see that the man who gave the DNA who was descended from Richard III's sister is a carpenter who made the coffin for him.

I think it's a shame that the bones are not displayed in a glass topped coffin. It was an extraordinary archaeological find and I can't see the point in filing past a wooden box.

I can't see the point of any of it! Some people will turn out for any old thing, others love the chance to look tearful and clutch a flower. such weirdness.

I can't work up any enthusiasm for it either rosesarered.

There has to be a reburial and because he was a king there will always be lots of people interested. There is massive interest from many other countries too.

I do think there has to be a bit of pageantry. Not just a body arriving by hearse and a service attended by the great and good.

Not sure about the cadets marching at Bosworth Field. I would have expected a few real soldiers. Having said that the youngsters did well and must have practised marching for hours.

My DH is a bit of history fanatic but he was watching the procession on the news and he said 'what a palaver to bury a few old bones'.

Your DH is right KatyK !
I do wonder how many people of the thousands waiting to see the coffin had ever had a single thought in their heads at any time in their lives about this particular King.

Haven't those people got anything better to do with their lives. ? The man was hardly a saint after all according to my DH who has taught History for 55 years.

www.theguardian.com/science/2013/feb/05/princes-in-tower-staying-under

An investigation that will not take place in the Queen's lifetime but after??

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3008671/Richard-III-one-evil-detestable-tyrants-walk-earth.html

I enjoyed reading this article.

I think that other countries must be totally bemused by the way we live in the past, with our archaic system of monarchy.