Trevor Phillips' documentary about multiculturalism

The term "political correctness" is too broad, and parts of it have been operating incorrectly.

The dictionary definition of the word racist is too broad. And parts of it are incorrect.

I think that free schools are a bad idea.

I thought it was interesting that the programme said, that given free will, different nationalites naturally choose to segragate. I hadnt thought of that before.

What do you mean by political correctness Eloethan?

Sorry eloethan but I still don't agree with you. As I said the basics can be lost in intellectualising the situation. As a 70s educated so called 'roght thinking liberal' I too would have hesitated to address the racial aspect of that situation. Re poor little girl Klimbie - the Drs and SW bent over backwards to account for her injuries being due to her African origin in some way. Literally dangerous political correctness.

jane10 I have already expressed my view on the issue of the Rotherham and other scandals involving Asian men. I don't believe that the failure of the police to address this terrible exploitation was down to political correctness. There were many examples in the report of police officers witnessing situations that were blatantly abusive - e.g. the young girl they found in a drunk and dishevelled state in a hotel room with several Asian men. There was no investigation or action taken. Similarly, a police officer wrote that a 12 year old girl who had had sex with five Asian men had done so "100% consensually". That is the opposite of "political correctness".

There is a need for Muslim people to educate their boys as to what is legally and morally acceptable, in terms of their treatment of Muslim and non-Muslim girls/women - but this has to be reinforced by the law. This behaviour went on for years and no doubt some Muslim families were aware of it - but so were the police and it is their job to take the matter seriously and send a clear message that any reports of abuse/exploitation will be thoroughly investigated and pursued.

It is a concern that certain areas have concentrations of people of a specific race/cultural background but these neighbourhoods have existed for many many years. In general, people start to disperse over time - although it is true that certain core areas remain predominantly of one particular race/religion/culture. Given that a lot of people (including politicians) believe that these separate communities do militate against social cohesion, it might have been better not to have started the "free school" programme, a third of which are faith schools.

soontobe the finding that there was institutional racism in the judicial system came out of an official government study.

People have already suffered hugely. Damage has already been done.

It certainly made me think. Especially about the attitudes that led to those literally hundreds and hundreds of girls abused by Pakistani men. That's the bottom line for me. We can have all the intellectual arguments we like but our polite hesitation to address the issue of these men's race and culture led directly to the proliferation of this hellish abuse.

It is that pendulum effect again. Attitudes are at one extreme (racist and unacceptable) and attempts to address this take us to the other extreme. Maybe eventually it will settle somewhere in the middle - hopefully without too much suffering on the way.

Anas post.
That part of the programme made me feel uncomfortable.
I havent been able to work out why for a while.
I think that it comes back to trusting the police. And I dont think I do to the extent that I used to.
If the police were totally trustworthy, then great. But if the police are not that would deliver some injustices.

I feel sorry for the innocent people of all colours living in these areas at present. I think that they have been shortchanged.

Trevor Phillips discussed the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand case and suggested that the media coverage was over the top. He felt individual cases of this nature were not significant and that a much more important issue was the inability of retired black footballers to obtain employment as coaches. But it is absolutely essential that racist name calling should be shown to be taken seriously and my feeling is that the lack of career progression for black footballers is just an extension of that underlying racism. So both issues are very important and should be tackled

I agree with you on both points.

He also made a comment to the effect that although it was felt that once discrimination ceased everything would be better, now we had a situation where white people are somehow being victimised

I wasnt sure what he was getting at either, and wasnt sure I agreed with that part either.

*He seemed to steer clear of research which found that, despite race equality laws, people with obviously foreign names who submit exactly the same CV as people with English names, are much less likely to be called for interview, or that, as reported in The I in 2013 "Judges and magistrates are institutionally racist, consistently handing down more lenient sentences to white criminals, an official Government study has revealed."

I didnt think he steered clear. But he didnt spend much time on it, and I agree that it is probably a very big issue as regards cvs.

I am not sure that you are at all right about the second part? I would take a lot of convincing on that I think.

Perhaps he should also have watched the TV programme "Make Me British" (or something to that effect) where a young Asian woman who took part in the programme was told by English people in a pub that she should dispense with her headscarf and wear a mini skirt if she wanted to be accepted by the indigenous population

I didnt see that programme.

We have certainly moved a long way from the days of the Smethwick branch of the Ku Klux Klan but I would prefer it if we didn't start heading back that way.

Definitely.

I thought it was a real mish mash of a programme and it may have raised Trevor Phillips' profile after some time away from our TV screens but I don't think it presented a coherent argument

I dont agree. I thought it was very clear, and well thought out and written in most places. No idea if he wants his profile raised or not, but he may do.

He started off saying that the idea of the CRE was that "if you could prevent people from expressing ideas, they would stop thinking them". Was that the aim of the CRE? I thought it was to try to ensure that people were not discriminated against with regard to employment, housing, education, etc., on the basis of their race or religion.

If that was the starting aim, I did think how arrogant and ignorant of them.
I would have thought the same as you.

He then went on to say that various parts of London are known for higher numbers of residents from specific communities - Jewish people in Highgate, Golders Green, Stamford Hill, etc., Greek Cypriot and Turkish people in Green Lanes, etc. etc. - and then commented that this was something that people are uncomfortable talking about. Well, I don't know where he lives now but where I live in East London, people are quite comfortable talking about it - why should they not be?

May be it is an living in or around London/not living in or around London thing. I would find it a bit of an odd thing to discuss in polite company. I am glad that others do not.

He then said that it is, in effect, frowned upon to talk about the fact that Jewish people are on average much more successful and wealthy than the rest of the population and that they also have a disproportionately strong role in politics and finance. He pointed out that because of the treatment of Jewish people under the Nazis, we would be uncomfortable talking about the issue - but why would anyone need to talk about it?

Why not?
I think that after this programme, people everywhere will be much more comfomforable having all these types of comversations.

I thought the section when he and the former police chief, Tarique Ghaffur, discussed "intelligence-led" criminal investigations was very muddled. It's interesting to note that Mr Ghaffur received a £300,000 out-of-court settlement for his claim of racial discrimination - not an outcome that is usually available to young people who are stopped for, as Trevor Phillips put it, "Driving when Black

I agree, it was muddled. Or perhaps not finished being thought through. But glad he had the conversation.

I thought it was a real mish mash of a programme and it may have raised Trevor Phillips' profile after some time away from our TV screens but I don't think it presented a coherent argument.

He started off saying that the idea of the CRE was that "if you could prevent people from expressing ideas, they would stop thinking them". Was that the aim of the CRE? I thought it was to try to ensure that people were not discriminated against with regard to employment, housing, education, etc., on the basis of their race or religion.

He then went on to say that various parts of London are known for higher numbers of residents from specific communities - Jewish people in Highgate, Golders Green, Stamford Hill, etc., Greek Cypriot and Turkish people in Green Lanes, etc. etc. - and then commented that this was something that people are uncomfortable talking about. Well, I don't know where he lives now but where I live in East London, people are quite comfortable talking about it - why should they not be?

He then said that it is, in effect, frowned upon to talk about the fact that Jewish people are on average much more successful and wealthy than the rest of the population and that they also have a disproportionately strong role in politics and finance. He pointed out that because of the treatment of Jewish people under the Nazis, we would be uncomfortable talking about the issue - but why would anyone need to talk about it?

I thought the section when he and the former police chief, Tarique Ghaffur, discussed "intelligence-led" criminal investigations was very muddled. It's interesting to note that Mr Ghaffur received a £300,000 out-of-court settlement for his claim of racial discrimination - not an outcome that is usually available to young people who are stopped for, as Trevor Phillips put it, "Driving when Black".

Trevor Phillips discussed the John Terry/Anton Ferdinand case and suggested that the media coverage was over the top. He felt individual cases of this nature were not significant and that a much more important issue was the inability of retired black footballers to obtain employment as coaches. But it is absolutely essential that racist name calling should be shown to be taken seriously and my feeling is that the lack of career progression for black footballers is just an extension of that underlying racism. So both issues are very important and should be tackled.

He also made a comment to the effect that although it was felt that once discrimination ceased everything would be better, now we had a situation where white people are somehow being victimised.

He seemed to steer clear of research which found that, despite race equality laws, people with obviously foreign names who submit exactly the same CV as people with English names, are much less likely to be called for interview, or that, as reported in The I in 2013 "Judges and magistrates are institutionally racist, consistently handing down more lenient sentences to white criminals, an official Government study has revealed."

Perhaps he should also have watched the TV programme "Make Me British" (or something to that effect) where a young Asian woman who took part in the programme was told by English people in a pub that she should dispense with her headscarf and wear a mini skirt if she wanted to be accepted by the indigenous population.

We have certainly moved a long way from the days of the Smethwick branch of the Ku Klux Klan but I would prefer it if we didn't start heading back that way.

To get back to the OP, what impressed me most was the fearless presentation of the facts about which crimes are most likely to be committed by certain ethnic groups.

Unsurprisingly, white Brits were most likely to be involved in drink-related crime, but rather more surprisingly so-called 'stereotypical prejudices' were also proved to be justified to a quite impressive extent as regards other ethnic groups.

I have some Italian-born Moroccan friends. They left first Italy, then France, because of racism. He is a highly intelligent and well-educated man who works as a controller in the Eurostar offices at the French end - yet it was only when he moved to Kent that they finally felt accepted. I thought that was very sad.

I have missed out some words again. It said, most welcome in Europe.

The documentary said that the UK is where immigrants feel the most welcome.

That's a bit difficult to justify – out of all the countries in the world and immigrants of all nationalities. I have my doubts about anyone having published reliable research.

Fascinating programme. Lots to think about. Trevor Philips is certainly in a position to say this previously unsayable stuff.

The doctors of Victoria Climbie thought that she had insect bites from her childhood. How sad.

I haven't watched it yet, but have recorded it, Ana. It looked as if it was going to be fascinating.

soontobe police, media, social workers and politicians are/were just as ignorant of the customs of other peoples as any of us. My sister's favourite story as a social worker was how a little afghanistani boy laughed and laughed a couple of years ago when presented with pyjamas. He thought we were mad!

I think that it all set out with very good intentions. And to a certain extent it worked.
The documentary said that the UK is where immigrants feel the most welcome.

Politicians, police, social workers and media.
None of them protected the general public, particularly the most vulnerable, as they should have and expected to be protected.

i have recorded this but I saw him interviewed on This Morning last week and he spoke a lot of sense.

Multiculturalism developed as a reaction to the way people from minorities were generally treated, especially in school. I've heard teachers and others rubbishing children's exotic names and brave attempts to speak English. I've heard children being labelled as 'non-speaking' when in fact, they and their families were at least bilingual. But not in English. I've seen children shouted at because they couldn't handle a knife and fork. I could go on and on. Then the band-wagon riders leapt on. Instead of simply making sure that every child knew their heritage was respected while they learned about the country they now lived in and its language, we got political correctness. And the whole thing was somehow twisted into a different kind of power game.

Exactly, thatbags. Joseph Harker seems to have (deliberately?) missed the point and indeed the whole message.