From the Humanist Association - discuss

Jalima If you are concerned about inclusivity, this is stated on the gov.UK site:-

"Local councils are responsible for deciding the RE syllabus but faith schools and academies can set their own.

"They have to follow the curriculum, except for religious studies where they are free to only teach their own religion".

I understand by this that whilst faith schools instruct pupils in accordance with their own religion, they have no legal obligation to provide any sort of education regarding other beliefs. Lord Runcie when he was Archbishop of Canterbury said that engagement with children and young people in schools will "enable the Church to: “Nourish those of the faith; encourage those of other faiths; *challenge those who have no faith.*” Why is it considered OK to express the view that those who have no religious beliefs may be "challenged" about their position but unacceptable to express the view that schools should be religion-neutral?

Given that many church schools are in towns and villages it would not be possible for lies or cheating Iam so I support your post

Jingle, I believe there will be a revival , no idea when or why but if one is a Christian one is fully aware of the promise - I am with you always, even unto the end of the world

Firstly I apologise for posting in haste earlier and not checking that this iPad hadn't changed what I'd written. To say my comments were garbled is an under statement.

I'm rather shocked by the number of people you know granjura, who lie and cheat, who seem only to think about their own selfish needs. My children went to an Anglican high school. They're in their early 30's now and remain close to many former school friends. I can honestly say I can't think of any families I know who lied or cheated to get their children into that high school, or the equally good comprehensive in our area.

Ooh, thank you ab. Praise indeed.

I really don't think we can judge any schools today by any schools Gransnetters may have taught in in the past. Education is changing far too much for that!

Great post Jingle

And I can't believe I've entered into yet another thread about atheism v Christianity, which is sure to lead to trouble.

I am glad that the Queen is a committed Christian. I am glad that Britain is still considered to be principally a Christian country. I am glad there are schools being run with a Christian ethos. I wish there were enough of them for all parents who desire it to send their children to such schools. I don't care about the Bishops in the Lords. I think Justin Welby is an excellent Archbishop of Canterbury.

Long live Christianity.

But the fact remains that a lot of faith schools do produce better educational results, which is why parents want their children to go to them. Why else is all this 'lying and cheating' (according to granjura) going on?

Can I bust the myth that faith /church schools offer a "better" education?

There are excellent church schools and some disastrous ones too same as there are fantastic community schools and some poor ones too.

My objection is about having an education system that creates a hierarchy exactly as many posters think: church schools offer something "extra" and are therefore more desirable. This then suggests that community schools are somehow "less" desirable. If this were true it would not be so bad , but it is not!

I have taught in church and community schools: good, excellent and not so good. The quality of the education was not dependent on church/non-church but on the teachers who were mostly not particularly religious!

Lots would agree with you Varian me included, others would not.Looks like one of those subjects that we have to agree to disagree.

All schools, at least in the state sector, should be inclusive, not sectarian. Children benefit from being with others from different backgrounds, different religions and none.

So called "faith schools" are segregating children and attempting to indoctrinate them - teaching them that "we are right - they are wrong".

Children need to learn about a range of beliefs. If they come from a strongly religious family, they will get enough indoctrination at their church, mosque, synagogue or temple.

To understand the damage these schools do in dividing society Google the Accord Coalition and listen to its chairman Rabbi Jonathan Romain.

Jamila has summed it up better than I ever could

Not all schools are good schools sadly but church schools seem to have a very good standard, again only speaking for the church schools I have knowledge of not all teachers are church goers ,

I still believe we need more not less church schools and disagree they should be abolished because of other faiths . What a church school does get is support from the church community , we fund raise for ours, there is a pot where the staff can buy things a child may be in need of . We need to dwell less on church schools and accept they are part of a community , community supported schools

Good morals do not belong to Christianity. Children can be and are taught good morality anywhere and everywhere. Religion is not a requirement for that.

I honestly don't see any alarmist posts from anyone on here, no matter what they think about faith schools.Some of us would prefer all schools to be secular, others like the faith schools.It is not about 'knocking' religion, but about having the ideal of a completely mixed education, simple as that.

If things are really as jalima's post says (and I'm prepared to believe that they are), why is there resistance to non-religious schools where the same things are taught about religions as jal's post says are already taught?

Also, please, apply that to all faith schools, not just CofE ones. The only reason for having specific faith schools is to teach more about about a specific faith than about others, isn't it? If it isn't then faith schools are unnecessary by anyone's reckoning.

Which, in the end, is all people arguing for secular schools are saying: nothing unreasonable at all. Secularists argue for equality in schooling, nothing more and nothing less.

Tricia, I didn't think for a second you were disagreeing with me

A lot of people like the morals of a Christian faith school. Another reason children are sent there.

Sound reasoning and common sense, Jalima, makes a nice change from the hectoring alarmist tenor of some posts. Good to see the facts as opposed to the prejudices. Thank you.

x-ed posts jura.

The puzzle for me is why parents jump through religious hoops to get their kids into a CofE school if religion has so little to do with being there.

I believe people who say many (possibly most) Anglican schools are simply good schools in all respects, but the puzzle remains: why is a certain amount of real or superficial religiosity apparently a requirement in so many cases? Or, if not an actual requirement, then something that will make a difference to your application?

I'd say Amen to that- and leave this thread. If it served to make a few people think- then so be it.

Switzerland has always had private schools in Zurich and Geneva- for expats working there. As there are more and more expats in thos areas, many British, working in IT and banking and big business, in those towns and also tax havens like Zug- those parents are putting more and more pressure for more. I was talking about where I live, where expats are few, private schools extremely rare (I don't know a single child around here who goes to one- and one British School closed last year in the big town as there were no takers)- and NO religious schools, not one. And as a member of the local education board, I shall fight tooth and nail to keep it so -excellent schools for ALL the children, irrespective of social background, ehtnicity or religion, with all the better off and better educated parents supporting the system, not just for their children, but for all (there are a couple of famous ones in traditionally Catholic areas, one in Fribourg and one in St Maurice- I know of one child in the last 64 years who went there in the 50s. In fact, my country being so medieval and backward, with a long peasant tradition, means we are not saddled with religious division and tradition of private and divisive schools- and long may it last.

Amen, last post on this thread. No point going around in circles and having words and intentions twisted. Sad.

I think the Humanist Association is just doing a bit more 'Christian-bashing'.

At least there are no lions involved.