From the Humanist Association - discuss

I took school assemblies for very many years and never lead a prayer or sang a Christian hymn but they were all mainly Christian in character

We had time to think about moral dilemmas silently and sang songs of friendship and wonder!

We all wanted to be kind to strangers, be good and honest people, be friendly, share , use our talents, fight the wrong doer so good prevailed, help those who were hungry, needed help etc etc. You do not have to have a religious faith to want or promote those ideals.

No one can be forced to stand or kneel or utter a prayer

My biggest concern is the teaching of children in a compulsory setting. School (or home education) is a legal requirement and as such should be honest and have integrity. The teaching of any religion should begin with the statement "Christians/muslims, buddhists etc. believe...." - the subject should never be taught as fact in the same league as 2+2 =4.

If a prayer or hymn is an agenda item on a meeting and I am expected to attend then I am being expected to participate or be minuted as late.

I think the good compromise of non agenda payers shows thoughtful common sense, no-one is prevented from doing something they want to do and others do not have to participate artificially!

Penstemmon, no one is forced to pray or sing hymns so they needn't be part of it

Elegran, no reason why children of faith should be taught by atheists and no reason why teachers with faith should not teach children of no faith

In many councils they have a pre-meet for those who do want to say a prayer to help and guide them make the right decisions but it is not part of the official meeting.

The place for saying prayers and singing religious songs is with others who share your faith. I am not trying to stop people worshiping..just don't want them toexpect me to have to be a part of it!

"Why should children of faith be taught by atheists ?" It depends what they are teaching. Is it only people of faith who are competent to teach mathematics?

Are people of a different faith (or none) not to be trusted with the education of children in non-religious subjects? That is to insult their integrity, and I am sure no-one would do that.

There is no need for those who do profess and practice a faith to do so behind closed doors, either. Having no prayers said out loud at, say. a LA meeting to decide on local matters doesn't prevent those attending from using their convictions to influence their opinions on what should be done, or from everyone knowing that they are influenced. Not having those beliefs doesn't prevent any other members of the meeting from using their own ethical convictions on which to base their decisions either.

I understand why some atheists want to stop hymn singing etc, but what of people of faith who want it to continue ?

Prayers said at council meetings, some may want it stopped , some may want it to continue

p.p.s. my brother, who is an 'elder' in the Baptist church and a really practising Christian , does not believe that schools should have daily 'acts of worship' on the grounds that worship is something one does voluntarily and spritually. He is an RE teacher.

p.s. I do not think that numbers of church attenders is in any way an accurate indicator of Christian believers. I think that both now and in the past, there have been attenders who do not believe and non attenders that do!

As a humanist I do not support faith schools as I believe that developing a faith is best done within a family or the community of faith that a family belongs to. I do think schools should teach about religions and non- religious beliefs. Morality and good social values are not confined to those with a religious or spiritual life and are taught in non faith schools equally as well as in faith schools.

I do believe that we should separate state and church whilst recognising that UK cultural heritage is strongly based, linguistically and in custom & practice, in its Christian heritage. This can also be addressed in the education system but I do not think we need to say prayers or sing hymns at state /government (local or national) meetings and events.

I think that the House of Lords needs reforms in all sorts of ways and I would include the bishops in that!

I do not think the figures (wherever they have been obtained) are relevant. Faith is a private matter, publicly expressed where relevant (e.g. churchgoing). It is not a given and should be divorced entirely from state institutions of all kinds.

Respect for people's faith should be the norm - unless it involves removing healthy bits from babies or children, or regarding individuals as devils.

It is good to see that the new school curriculum is so comprehensive in terms of learning about world religions and humanism.

I am happy for my DGC to be taught by people of any faith or none, as long as they teach their subject and do not force their religion or absence of it on the pupils.

Me too, Alea.

I agree with what you have said about Justin Welby, Alea.

I take exception to granjura's description of Justin Welby as "disdainful". Anyone who has heard him or read him carefully will I hope, see the truly compassionate and humane man who far from being out of touch with our 21st century society, know and says it like it is. His previous high flying career puts him in a different league from woolly clergy who may have little or no grasp of the secular life outside the Church.
That is not to say that the same can necessarily be claimed for the whole C of E.
However, he is making a real effort and "disdainful" is to do him an injustice
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This is from the DT.

In his first interview with a gay publication, the Most Rev Justin Welby, told PinkNews that the Church had to accept that same-sex marriage is now the law in England and Wales after securing overwhelming support in Parliament
He said it was “right and proper” that same-sex marriage has now come into force, adding: “And that’s great.”
His comments came as he offered an olive branch to the gay community, publishing new rules for Church of England schools aimed at stamping out homophobic bullying

Why should children of faith be taught by atheists ? It works both ways sorry ,

TwiceasNice What exactly are Christian concepts? If people mean "love thy neighbour as thyself", "turn the other cheek", etc. etc. - principles of kindness and humility - I would say that those values are not exclusive to religious people.

You say: "How will children grow up making sense of believing in God if they don't find it being spoken about from the time they are small and open to listening."

Surely it is up to the parents to talk about their beliefs and demonstrate them in the way they conduct their own lives? Then there are churches, synagogues, mosques, etc., in which people may congregate for instruction and prayer. I don't think anybody is suggesting that people should not be free to practice their religions at home and in their places of worship. But some people are saying that religion should not be given a privileged position within the political establishment and neither should schools be sponsored by religious organisations.

When in a difficult situation a lot of people believe in God. My sons friend died at 21 in an accident and his friends flocked into church for his funeral and took the words seriously. Sadly our world has become so secular with for instance sports on Sunday , shops open on Sunday and Sunday working that Church has been pushed out of many lives. People still want baptisms, weddings in church and funerals in church. A lot of people hang on to a little belief. It is hard for youngsters today to grow up as Christians in such a secular and godless society. However I think I agree that the Church should be disestablished.

I'm in favour of schools with a Christian ethos ( or whatever faith you practise) How will children grow up making sense of believing in God if they don't find it being spoken about from the time they are small and open to listening. My daughter and SIL are not church goers but their children are taught Christian concepts in school. If when they are older they choose not to believe that is their right but let's start off with a good grounding, you get your moral compass from other avenues besides your home.

However I am not in favour of the church having unlimited power and am saddened by some of the opinions being expressed which show poor tolerance of others sometimes and this is not just related to the Christian faith either.

People of many faiths want their children to attend faith schools, to close faith schools is taking away what has been a right in this country for many years. Faith is not to be pushed at people but neither should it be kept behind closed doors . I understand the problems of parents who do not want their children to attend faith schools but think the same respect should be extended to people of faith by atheists .

The humanist association is getting too demanding, they want to change Thought For The Day, would it not be more charitable to have their own few minute slot ?

I will not hide my faith behind closed doors

The nature of religion means that it can't be a purely private matter. It isn't a hobby. The practise of one's religion in terms of ritual can be a private matter but the practise of religion in terms of everyday life has to be carried on in public.

So I agree 'live and let live' in your own home, privately, but not in schools, not in Government, not with such a strong hold on our institutions.

Time for religous tolerance, bu time for it to be a private matter.

Yes Jalima- and no, I can't garantee the figures.

Ethel- I have nothing against religions, per se- and have friends and relatives who belong to very many.

The point being though- is that this Government constantly repeats that England is a Christian nation, and that schools and institutions should strongly reflect that. And as the OP says- a very large proportion of schools are run and strongly influenced by faith of one kind or another- and our own Government too, with the 26 seat for the CofE.

The figures are from the Humanist Association?
Are they impartial and absolutely factual?