From the Humanist Association - discuss

" When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites! They love to stand up and pray in the houses of worship and on the street corners, so that everyone will see them, I assure you they have already been paid in full. But when you pray, go to your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what you do in private, will reward you."

If it was good enough for Jesus…

granjura, you have missed my point.

This is the official text from the Anglican Church:

In the christening service, you will make some big promises to support your godchild throughout their life. You could talk to your own vicar about what these promises mean, or join with your godchild’s parents when they explore what a christening means. If you’re wondering what these promises might look like in practice, or how you can begin, explore our links for some simple ideas.

These are the first things you’ll be asked in the christening service:-

“Will you pray for them, draw them by your example into the community of faith and walk with them in the way of Christ?”
“Will you care for them, and help them to take their place within the life and worship of Christ’s Church?”

To the questions above, the parents and godparents answer: “With the help of God we will”.

You will then be asked some questions which you answer on behalf of a child who is too young to answer for themselves:

You will be asked to turn away from all things that are against God – the wrong in our own lives and to stand against the wrong in the world.
You will then be asked to turn positively towards Jesus, the companion and guide for the amazing journey ahead.

These are all big questions and big promises, so you might like to take time to explore them for yourself.

Tricia- would you really prefer that people mock and deride, pretend and disrespect- become vague cultural christians. Not my idea of respect, sincerely.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Totally agree- which is why I would not do it, ever. And also out of respect for Christian presents.

Lilygran- please provide me with links and quotes from any of the Christian Churches, please, to the effect that a God (!) parent does not have to be a believer and Christian, please. How can a person make a promise to bring up a child in a faith they do not understand nor believe in. Sorry, but this is nonsense.

Referring to 'finger crossing'.

Which would surely be hypocritical anyway, for an atheist.

Yes, again- I get that. But prayers should not be an integral part of non religious officialdom and Government- why on earth should it be, taking into account the facts given in my previous post? Councillors are elected, by the people, to represent their interest in local GVT- and this rôle has nothing to do with religion, at all.

It rather implies that they need God's guidance to make the 'right' decision. Those who would like God's guidance in their political rôle can ask for it quietly in their heart and soul- and do not need to flaunt it and expect others to par-take. In which case, others could ask for time to pray to their own God, and for the others to sit quielty and respectfully to that too. And then the Humanists could ask for time to explain why they will make their decision according to their hearts too and with the facts and knowledge they have gathered. And then anarchists will demand time to say it's all nonsense anyhow. LOL.

PS you don't have to be a Christian to promise to bring the child up in the Christian faith and you are making the statements of faith on behalf of a child being baptised. If they are old enough, they make the statements themselves. No need for crossed fingers.

You are surely not 'forced' to take part? You can stand or sit quietly and wait, surely? If the prayer means nothing to all those present, they could vote not to have prayers, couldn't they? And incidentally, the complaint that people of other religions might find prayer unacceptable isn't very compelling. In my experience, people of faith are quite tolerant of other people's prayers.

Lilygran, you mis-understand what I am saying, really:

I don't understand why people who deny prayer has any meaning get so het up about other people praying in their presence!

I have absolutely NO problem with people praying in my presence. We take part in lots of activities where people pray here- and we bow our heads and quietly wait, in respect. It means nothing to me, but I truly respect that it means a great deal for most present (we host our local elderly for luncheon once a month- and the Vicar always addresses all too after the prayer).

What I would strongly object to, as a Councillor about to make decisions- is to be FORCED to take part- and to see other Councillors of different faiths (and in Leicester we certainly had many)- have to do so too. This especially, as, if a census was taken- probably only a small minority are practising Christians, and a smaller minority still regularly attend Church services.

All the Vicars I have spoken to, both here and in UK- prefer people to respect their faith and not pretend or worse, to use their services knowing full well they are not believers. Which is more respectful? A person who says 'no I will not be God Parent, because I will not make promises I will not keep' or a person who says 'yeah, I'll do it- but it's all nonsense and I'll keep fingers crossed behind my back when I make the promise'.?

There was a big discussion about this ( prayers before Council meetings) in Bideford ( local Gnetters may remember this.)Of course there should not be prayers before a meeting, a council meeting has nothing to do with religion and is purely secular ( or should be.)This goes for ANY religion .

I don't understand why people who deny prayer has any meaning get so het up about other people praying in their presence! If it doesn't mean anything, what does it matter? If you're travelling abroad and go to visit an ancient place of worship, do you make a fuss if local people are praying there? Do people picket Stonehenge at the Soltices? I think it's yet another back door attack on Christianity; it's Christian prayer people keep objecting to, not Jewish, Moslem, Hindu or Buddhist (or Druid or Wiccan).

Why not? (prayer before Council meeting) - because as probably the great majority present are non-believers, or believers of other faiths- a Christian prayer becomes either bizarre, non-sensical or hypocritical. As a Councillor, (which I am, but not in UK) it would make me feel very uncomfortable and cringe. I would consider it truly disrespectful vis-à-vis the Christian present (which is why I would not get married, buried or be a god parent, in Church- out of respect).

Been at the surgeon's in town to decide the date for my knee replacement (22nd March)- and am a bit shocked to read this thread- especially Alea's accusation - as she takes exception to me calling Justin Welby disdainful. Where on earth have I done that, Alea, pray tell?

AnnieB, no way am I expecting people to keep their faith private by 'hiding it away' - of course, not at all. People of all faiths should have total freedom to worship, at home or in Church (Mosque, Temple, wherever they choose)- I meant 'private' as not in institutions, Government, Court of Law or indeed school.

Just as LuckyG- I don't mind at all if good teachers are Christian, or Muslim, as she says 'of any faith or none' as long as they do not push their religion or indoctrinate in any way. Just as I would object totally if any teacher would mock or deride any religious person, and push their humanism, agnosticism or atheism on children either.

Our institutions should not be strongly influenced by any religion imho. And the figures in OP show that this is even more relevant now- as figures clearly show (even if the figures are somewhat exagerated, and I have no evidence of that).

Eleothan, why not?

Anniebach How is the freedom to express your faith being curtailed?

You haven't explained why it is appropriate for a prayer to precede a Council meeting.

Anniebach I don't understand what the queen's speech has got to do with it.

Elegran, it's the PM who claims this is a Christian country, I disagree , it's a country were there are Christians who have always been allowed to practice their faith in freedom - until recently , now whilst there is still the freedom to be a Christian the freedom to express their faith is being curtailed

If Muslims were to pray at the start of a meeting I wouldn't have a problem , I wouldn't join in but would be respectful and remain seated and silent

I assume that the reason some faith schools have many applications is the academic reputation of the individual school. If a faith school were very pious but was known to be hopeless at actually teaching anything, would there still be parents anxious to get their children into it? Well, perhaps they would in some cases, if they valued the specific faith aspect above the broader education that their child was getting.

Of 22 schools of different faiths re-inspected by HMI's in november of last year, 12 were deemed "inadequate" www.gov.uk/government/.../HMCI__advice_note_BSI.pdf

(Previous checks of these private faith schools had been carried out by the Bridge Schools Inspectorate (BSI), an independent inspectorate which had inspected about 50 private Muslim and Christian schools.

Independent schools do not come under the same Ofsted process as state schools, with inspections being carried out by independent agencies such as the Independent Schools Inspectorate and the School Inspection Service.

Ofsted had raised concerns about the "quality of BSI inspection" and, this autumn, Ofsted took over its inspection responsibilities.

One school in this current wave of Ofsted inspections - Manchester Islamic High School for Girls - was rated outstanding.)

re "Faith" schools - if there are so many non-believers around, why do many parents go to great lengths to get their child into a faith school?
Moving house, going to church, getting baptised etc.
This was from a programme I saw last year, or the year before, so might not be relevant now.

If a council had a lot of Muslim councillors, would it be right for there to be prayer mats and an Islamic prayer to begin the proceedings? Would it be OK for a Satanist councillor to start the meeting by appealing to Beelzebub to guide everyone's hearts in making decisions?

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you don't want other partisan modes of worship to be imposed, what right do you have to vaunt your own, however excellent it may be?

I think that is the nub of it, Penstemmon We can discuss this until the cows come home, but those who live all corners of their lives as they believe that their religion enjoins them to will not agree that things which are common to all people - all children if we are talking of school and all adults as well - can be conducted without referring them to their God.

But there are many ways of approaching God, and there are ways of living a good life which can be achieved without religion.

A maths teacher with faith can teach children that without reference to religion. A teacher without faith can teach geography without mentioning God or atheism.

A local school has a catchment area which includes children from all kinds of faiths, backgrounds and birthplaces. What a local authority school tries to teach them are the academic basics and a knowledge of the world as it is and was, and the bones of living together in a wider community without conflict.

Each denomination or faith has its own specific ideals. a teacher of a mixed class cannot emphasise one over the other. That is a matter for family and congregation.

Eloethan, the entire Christian community are not Mormons or JW's

I assume you switch the queens Christmas speech off ?

Anniebach Atheists and agnostics don't go knocking at people's doors handing out leaflets urging them to question their religious beliefs. I have never heard of a school where teachers who are non-believers force their non-belief onto their students.

In religious education classes, children are taught about the various religions of the world. As I said before, committed Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., are at liberty to bring their children up in accordance with their religious beliefs and practices (provided they are lawful) and to attend a place of worship as often as they wish. Why is that not enough?

We have a situation now where significant numbers of children go to schools almost entirely made up of children from one particular religion - Christian, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, etc., etc., and this is an increasing phenomenon with the advent of "free" schools. This means that many children never mix with children from other, or no, faiths. I think this is divisive and not conducive to a harmonious society.

Why do you feel it is appropriate for Council meetings to be preceded by prayers?