Should we follow France's lead and ban face coverings?

It still manifests itself as racism.

It's up to individual women (and men) to decide what they choose to wear. Noone else.

And of course it isn't only 'our' culture; it's the 'culture' of most of humanity, including most Muslims.

Islam is not a race, jings. Just as Christianity isn't a race. It's not a race issue but a culture issue. Subtle but important difference.

I value our culture of wanting to see other people's faces when I'm out somewhere public and I don't think wanting that is unreasonable in the slightest.

The reasons for face coverings, at least the ones that are being argued about, are ridiculous.

And that Times offer is a trap. Most people forget to cancel.

Perhaps they should try to be a bit more understanding and not just see it the way they probably want to see it. Hidden racism coming out?

" that if you put a black curtain between yourself and your fellow citizens they might regard it not as piety but as a declaration of hostility."

Bollocks.

Whilst on holiday recently we visited Buxton and we were walking along a narrow pathway when a group of Muslims with children and pushchairs came towards us and I did what I would always do when children are involved and stepped off the kerb (first checking behind me as a good cyclist/biker/pedestrian should .

i did not feel intimidated in any way and was greeted by the most beautiful smiles and laughing eyes from the ladies as they thanked me most politely. What did amuse me though was both ladies turned to their husbands and nagged them to get a move on and the husbands did just what they were told. It was a lovely moment and left me smiling for quite some time.

Very good article in this morning's Times by Janice Turner. She is actually quite sympathetic to the women's plight. I recommend the whole article. (Times is paywalled but there is an offer on at the mo: 30 days trial for £1).

Here are a few bits from it:

[Some] British Muslim women put a black curtain between themselves and society, but never ask why it provokes hostility

Many of the women say that the veil creates so much adverse attention they seldom go out: “My life has become like a prison. I’m forced to stay in my home so they have made me a prisoner. They are oppressing me.”

Yet never do they consider that their isolation might be self-induced; that if you put a black curtain between yourself and your fellow citizens they might regard it not as piety but as a declaration of hostility. A mother’s face is the first thing we see as an infant; reading someone’s expression is a universal key to human communication; masks have always been a primal source of fear.

It is the schoolgirls who feel compelled to cover up at an ever younger age, the Leicester women treated like sinners in their own communities for showing their faces, those who decry this ancient and regressive practice whom Liberty should be supporting. Not the theocrats who use the veil as a weapon and would make a bonfire of all our civil rights.

Good post Dumpling

Durhamjen we do conform to a dress code! and there are laws! but because they're laws we're happy with they go largely unnoticed. (I'm thinking of that naked rambler chap here!). If you live in a Saudi country you would be expected to dress by their code and cover up and I'm sure you would out of respect for their customs and culture - irrespective of religion.

On a recent holiday to India we were mostly in country districts and although nothing was said none of us wore vest tops without something long sleeved over the top and kept to long trousers or skirts. It would have felt offensive to have done otherwise. In Western Europe (that's the old Europe, not these new semi- middle Eastern countries sidling in) we're used to seeing a person's face. It's our custom and culture. If other countries have dress codes - why shouldn't we?

I see quite a lot of woman wearing the niqab, not just the odd one. And as Iam said its becoming more 'popular'. I am seeing more and more groups of young woman in shopping centres dressed in black niqabs and of course it makes them stand out, especially when they are in groups.

You may see a young family, with father and children in western dress but mother in niqab. That always looks odd - the contrast I mean.

I think there are two reasons they dress thus. Some do it through choice, a rebelliousness, especially the young ones. Others through cultural pressure. Must be handy though on a bad hair day!

I do not think there is such a thing as a Western dress code, Trendygran.
We have all worn whatever we wanted to, apart from school uniform, for most of our lives.
We are not dictated to and made to conform, so I do not see why Muslim women should be made to. Like I said before, it should be a matter of choice.

One argument is that some of these women are being forced to dress in this way. It seems a bit odd to me to then want to bring in a law to force them not to wear it. As absent said, for those women whose husbands/families expect them to cover up, this will mean they will be denied access to everyday society.

I don't particularly like to see women dressed in this way but, from what I've seen, it's quite often young women who do this. It could be an expression of loyalty to one's culture and perhaps is also seen as a demonstration of courage. It could be the usual rebelliousness that a lot of teenagers exhibit (many older muslims don't want their young women to adopt this form of dress as it makes both the woman and Asian people in general vulnerable to accusations of extremism and to verbal and physical abuse), it could be attention-seeking, or it could be a genuine response to what a person believes is required of their religion.

At the moment, the number of women who wear the niqab is very small, even in areas that are predominantly muslim. But I feel that the more hysteria there is about it, the more likely it is that young people will adopt this mode of dress as a matter of principle.

Does anyone know how many women in the UK wear the full burka? I just wonder if it's really an issue that is serious enough to warrant a law banning it?

I also wonder to what extent a law banning it would restrict the movement of those women who currently do wear it? Already separated from wider society to some extent, I suspect that they would become virtually housebound.

I also suspect that some people - and not just Moslems - would regard such a law as provocative. That could well prove counter-productive.

However, I do agree that reading facial expressions is an important part of human communication.

Many schools have regulation regarding clothing - mine did. If we turned up in anything other than a knee-length skirt and blazer (bottle green) and white shirt with a green and black striped tie, white socks and black shoes - we were sent home to get changed into proper uniform. No earrings (not even studs) and no necklaces. Only a signet ring could be worn. Other than the usual not wanting to wear a uniform at all, we just got on with it - it was part of the rules of the school. If it had bothered me too much, I'd have pestered my parents to move me to another school.

I dislike the full-face covering and probably wouldn't go out of my way to engage in conversation with anyone wearing one; I don't even like chatting to people wearing sunglasses because I can't see their eyes and it suddenly feels awkward not knowing where to focus.

And, if I'm honest, I'm sick and tired of hearing about Islam in whatever form it takes; you'd think nothing else was worth listening to.

I definitely think they should be banned. I see several 'covered ' ladies (or could even be men) every time I go into the city. I find this quite unnerving and agree with a. journalist in today's 'i' newspaper that if they choose to live here they should abide by a Western dress code.

It's good to see so much support for the decision of the European Court of Human Rights.

Some of the comments on this thread made me feel uncomfortable to be in support of the ruling. In the area I live, women wearing full face covering or burkas has become increasingly common in recent years. I haven't had any negative experiences, have found eye contact, and comments about their children have been responded to happily. I can't imagine feeling intimidated by women dressed in this way. I don't like women to cover themselves completely, for whatever reason. I'd be ok with this type of clothing anywhere but school, workplace, etc.

I had a couple of Italian muslim friends, he worked in the offices on the technical side of Eurostar. They bought a house in France of course - but the racism was so bad that they simply switched ends of the tunnel and bought one in Kent instead. She didn't even wear anything on her head at all, they were just different and spoke Arabic together. She wore jeans and trousers, but if she wanted to wear a skirt it would be a long one. I don't think France has ever liked anyone that looks remotely Arabic since the pieds noir were repatriated. They were suspected of being of mixed heritage, even if they weren't.

The rest of us have rights too, including the right to see the faces of our fellow citizens and that right, the European Court of Human Rights rightly says, transcends the supposed right to hide.

It is WEIRD to want to cover your face so that other people can't have a normal social relationship with you.

The ECHR ruling is about face coverings only, not head coverings (hats various). In a secular, democratic society, I think it is a perfectly reasonable ruling.

Private schools are presumably not subject to exactly the same rules as public schools in France? Same as here. Do the headscarf rules only apply in publicly funded schools?

People can and do practise their religion in France. Overt religious signs are not allowed in schools is all. I understood that it is all face-coverings except for protection that are banned so it's not a ban just on the ones some women wear/are forced to wear.

Not allowing girls to wear ordinary headscarves does seem excessive but I notice you mention bright colours only, jura. Does that mean that less brightly coloured headscarves would be allowed in schools so long as the person's face was visible?

Yes. I have suspicions about the French and racism.

Turbans are generally not an issue as there a very few Sikhs in France. The Jewish kippa used to be tolerated, not sure how it is now. I'm afraid that in France, the secular idea just about serves as an excuse for racism for too many. Crosses are ignored, and there are 1000s of cheap private catholic schools too. A huge difference between teaching religion, which I agree should be totally banned in secular countries (and in the UK too imho- religion is a private, personal and family matter)- and discriminating against religion (again, thinly veiled (pun intended) as secularism instead of anti-islamic racism.