Faith or indoctrination?

I applaud thatbags industry in finding examples of dubious activity on the part of the CoE or individual churches. I would rather all churches and all Christians lived up to the highest ideals. That includes me. But they don't. That doesn't mean we are better off without faith, whether we believe or not.

thatbags's

feetlebaum, yes I am. Are you saying that to be a Christian you have to believe absolutely everything the Christian church teaches? I think it's entirely possible to live a Christian life without swallowing all the dogma whole.

I have never thought of Jesus as being "cuddly" Bags! The mind boggles slightly!

Can you buy soft toy Jesus s? There could be a market.

So many of my friends are christian (indeed vicars!) and they all "cherry pick", believing the message about loving one another (and who could argue with that?) and rejecting those bits that they do not agree with (including most of the old testament). To be honest they are mostly (even the vicars) skating pretty close to being humanist in their beliefs.

Central to the christian faith are doctrines that make me squirm: original sin, being "saved", sacrifice, barbarity (crucifixion); and on top of that (though not central to most) is all the raft of imposed ideas about the inferiority of women, the "sin" of homosexuality etc.

If it is possible to lead one's life loving one's neighbour, spreading all the happiness one can without these pernicious beliefs, why not simply do so?

If you really want a cuddly Jesus, I'm sure you'll be able to get one at www.ship-of-fools.com/gadgets/witnessing/index.html. Also interesting discussions about many of the topics raised here. Mishap it's often not a matter of choice. That's not how faith works for most of us.

If it is not choice, then what is it? Indoctrination?

I think that provides an ending to the whole thread!

I was using the term cuddly sarcastically. Should have explained better. Jesus is portrayed a 'sweet' in pictures quite often.

And of course, as a baby/child he probably was cuddly.

Jesus soft toy

Mishap, was trying to find the words- but you said it so much better. Exactly how I feel.

£19.99!

The 'cuddly' 'Jesus' is, I think a Victorian invention.

Those who defend the cherry-picking approach - from whom do you derive the authority to make those choices? Is it any wonder that so many of us profess no respect for religion? Note I didn't say 'no respect for the religious'.

I don't understand why some people are so bothered by the idea that one can practise a religion without necessarily believing everything they're told. Are all Christians supposed to be creationists and fully committed to the 'eye for an eye' principle?

I love it that the Jesus doll looks like a Viking

It is a huge puzzle to those of us not a religious bent that one should join a religion and pick and choose what to believe.

In church, after the lessons (new and old testament) the congregation responds with something along the lines of this is the word of the lord. Is it or isn't it? Or do people mumble the phrase when the lesson happens to have been unacceptable to them? I know people who only say some bits of the creed because they cannot in all honesty stand there and say they believe in something they do not.

It is like joining a cricket team and only adhering to those rules that you like.

It is all open to interpretation by people thousands of years after it was all written down, and each generation will interpret it in their own way, deciding what is fact and what is myth.

The central puzzle is of course, what is it all for? How does it all make the world a better place?

I think I will pass on the cuddly doll!

Ana and Mishap - without adding to the controversy, I'd suggest that many Christians would say that the teachings of Christ more or less relegated the old testament to history - eg ' love thy neighbour' takes precedence over 'an eye for an eye'. Jesus also taught that fussing over the Leviticus orders about unclean food was a waste of time. I'm the first to say that this is a very simplistic explanation but I think it has relevance.I do agree you've made some very valid points.

Thank you, mcem, you have expressed my view entirely!

Mishap - "It is like joining a cricket team and only adhering to those rules that you like."

No it isn't, at all. Faith/religion is not a competetive game.

IMO, of course...

I live in a village that has three churches and two church schools. It certainly looks competitive to me. Some of the Christians I know believe in an eye for an eye, and I cannot get them to see that it is incompatible with Christianity.

You can't win, Ana!