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John Rutter on religion

(158 Posts)
Mishap Fri 28-Dec-12 21:32:13

I have just come across this interview with John Rutter the composer and I find it absolutely delightful - I identify with it so strongly - and his extraordinary personality shines through. I have edited it heavily, as the original is long (and can be found here: http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/DO/filmshow/ruttertx1.htm). I think the first and last sentences are fascinating!

"I am friend, fellow traveller, and agnostic supporter of the Christian faith; in my early days, people described themselves by default as Church of England if they didn't really have any religious affiliation...........I sang in the chapel choir and was always interested in religious studies, but somehow being a non-joiner became a habit; although I think I probably was religious in quite a powerful sense when I was young and into my twenties, not least because I felt so lucky as my career began to take off and things began to go well for me.......... a kind of theology of gratitude; probably can't take it very far because what happens when something goes wrong in your life? - the sense that there must be some benevolent deity behind all this is a bit like American religious thought; when I began to travel to America I started to meet an awful lot of Christians;....... the American faith world contains some of the very finest and most searching of theology and religious thought and practice, and some of the worst; I have experienced the full spectrum; ........ if I wanted to be honest about my own faith journey it has been backwards over the years; I am afraid what slightly began to sow the seeds of doubt was seeing the absolute certainty of religious adherents in America, and some of the harm that that certainty could lead to; I started by thinking there must be many paths to God and went from there to a rather tougher position which is that the universe is basically numbers, and in some sense mathematical and a lottery; if there is a controlling deity he is a bit like a Mafia don who is capable of doing good and charitable things, but also almost takes pleasure in doing malicious and harmful things, sowing the seeds of long-running dissent and problems; that is hard to reconcile with the Christian concept of a loving God; I don't find it helpful either to say that you have to have a personal relationship with Jesus; numerous of my religious friends say that if you are not born again and if Jesus is not your personal friend, then you are not a true Christian; I always remember the words of the Rev. Professor Charles Moule, a most searching theologian, who said he was perfectly sure he had only been born once; .........; people sometimes have asked me whether the fact that my son was killed affects my faith position; it happened in 2001 when he was nineteen and a student here at Cambridge, and he got run over crossing Queens’ Road one night; completely unforeseen and random, but I think that the answer is no, as by then I wouldn't have described myself as a believing Christian; on the other hand, you have to consider the alternatives; a world without any churches or space for religious thought or contemplation, or based only on material values, would be a hell; in a sense, if you believe the specific doctrines of the faith, I think that just the statement it makes about how man should not live by bread alone, is immensely important; music is a part of that because it is useless in a literal sense, you don't have to have music to survive, yet it has always been there; imagining a world without it is impossible, as is a world without faith; even though you might say that religion is an invention of man, I don't think it invalidates its worth; ....... it began to look to me as if the whole edifice of religion was a man-made construct; I do remain hugely sympathetic to the church, its music, its liturgy, its traditions, and, with some caveats, its ministry; on the whole, the Church I was baptised into, is trying to do good in a difficult situation, and is making a statement on behalf of qualities like compassion, forgiveness, charity, that everybody would support; I would be heartbroken if the Church of England closed its doors tomorrow; I hope to be buried in a country churchyard with a funeral service according to the 1662 Prayer Book, and all my favourite pieces of music; I suppose that is wanting it both ways - both the trappings without necessarily subscribing to the doctrine; I think there are quite a lot of people like me; Vaughan Williams was similar in that he had a sense of generalised spirituality which was triggered by things like standing on top of the Malvern Hills and contemplating the beauty of nature, or walking through the west door of a cathedral and being awestruck by the grandeur and mystery of the building, or being inspired by 'Pilgrim's Progress'; I think he would not have called himself a Christian, yet his life was steeped in Christianity at every point; I am like that and my moral compass probably does derive in large part from Christian ethic and teaching; I owe Christianity a huge debt and it is rather ungrateful of me not to believe in it more."

Mishap Wed 02-Jan-13 16:41:46

"Less charming" is a bit of an understatement! - I find the concept of original sin ludicrous and dangerous.

granjura Wed 02-Jan-13 16:57:04

And of course the Catholic Church totally twisted the hebrew language to make women responsible for sin - when it is not so in the original at all.

It is easy to Google Kohlberg's theory of moral development without having to buy any books. It is also totally relevant at the moment, with the Arab Spring, etc. Kohberg demonstrate clearly that several stages have to be got through, and can't be missed (even if for some jumping from one to the other can take days, or years) - seems to be just the same for democracy. It's impossible to successfully jump from a dictatorship to a democracy without going through several intermediate stages.

feetlebaum Wed 02-Jan-13 17:03:05

Like translating the Hebrew for 'young woman' as 'virgin'...

petallus Wed 02-Jan-13 17:32:37

I think we have to remember that Kohlberg's theory is just that, a theory. There have been criticisms (particularly by Gilligan).

For one thing Kohlberg gathered data by presenting people with dilemmas which they responded to in theory. People are known to respond differently sometimes when it actually comes down to a real life situation.

But here's the clincher. Kohlberg found that most men were at level 4 whilst most women were at level 3.

So are men at a higher level of development than women?

I don't think so!! grin

granjura Wed 02-Jan-13 18:19:32

He wrote his theory in the 50s, so that is not so surprising.

petallus Wed 02-Jan-13 19:27:54

Were men at a higher level of development than women in the 50s then?

granjura Wed 02-Jan-13 19:31:44

If you look at the level, they were more likely to want to follow convention.

petallus Wed 02-Jan-13 19:37:03

What men were? I must have a more in depth look at the model.

Joan Thu 03-Jan-13 11:01:46

Just had another look at the original posting here, about Rutter.

It has occurred to me and others here, that quite a lot of literature is hard to understand without knowing the biblical references. A lot of history too, I believe. Then there's The Enlightenment - impossible to understand without knowing what religion is all about.

For this reason I support the teaching of SOR as it is called here - Study of Religion. My 33 year old son teaches this to grades 10 to 12, and invites guest speakers from the major religions here - Orthodox priests, Rabbis, Imams, Protestant ministers etc. (He teaches at a progressive Catholic school which has many non-Catholic kids)

If we want our children to have an all-round education and to understand the world they live in, I feel SOR is essential - every bit as necessary as History and Geography and SOSE (Study of Society and Environment).

granjura Thu 03-Jan-13 17:39:16

Joan, does he also invite someone from a Humanist or Secular society too - so children can also consider that morality does not depend on having one or another religion? I do think that this is too often missing from RE education.

Joan Thu 03-Jan-13 21:42:53

I'm not sure, granjura - that particular aspect is something he can teach from his own heart. He is my son after all!!

crimson Thu 03-Jan-13 21:53:09

Can't remember if it was a Christian friend or the people on an Alpha course that I did once that told me this, but, that I had to actually believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. I said I couldn't so 'I was out'.

granjura Fri 04-Jan-13 14:14:59

My bil was about 5 when he started to behave strangely at home after coming back from school. He was walking furtively, with his hands in front of him, and feeling his way. My OH, as few years older, asked him what he was doing. 'I am feeling for the Holy Ghost, in case I bump into him. The Vicar at school said he was everywhere and you just can't see him'. My OH laughed - and bil was 'out of there' from then on. smile

annodomini Fri 04-Jan-13 14:41:27

crimson that's what it says in the Apostle's Creed. I can't believe that I spouted this when I was confirmed at the age of 16. I do know that, in common with most of the females in the congregation, I rather fancied the young minister... grin

granjura Fri 04-Jan-13 15:03:48

And that is also what you have to agree to believe when becoming a god-parent, which is why I just can't do it. For some it is just 'words' and cross your fingers behind your back. I can't, or won't.

granjura Fri 04-Jan-13 15:05:53

Of course, the creed as said in the CofE always makes me jump - and proves the very strange position of the CofE - away from Rome, and yet not reformed- still 'Catholic'.

jO5 Fri 04-Jan-13 15:21:01

I don't think you need to worry too much, if at all, about being a fantastic and believing godparent. It is just form for many people. And why not? It makes the world go and keeps us happy.

jO5 Fri 04-Jan-13 15:21:21

go round hmm

Bags Fri 04-Jan-13 15:28:01

No-one's ever asked me. Can't think why! wink

Bags Fri 04-Jan-13 15:28:26

Actually, it's probably because all my friends are atheists too.

soop Fri 04-Jan-13 15:37:00

Titter! smile

jO5 Fri 04-Jan-13 16:17:08

grin Bags

jO5 Fri 04-Jan-13 16:17:57

You would make a lovely godmother. Fun presents are the most important thing. IMO. grin

Bags Fri 04-Jan-13 16:49:41

There is that. I still have a little Wedgewood pot my godmother gave me for my eighteenth birthday. Keep my hairgrips in it.

Nonu Fri 04-Jan-13 17:48:52

Getting sooo tedious now sad