Christian Grans

Agreed, absent. Primitive ritual sacrifice and all that. Yuck.

It's a metaphor!

Go on Lilygran. Fancy that!

Yep. A disgusting metaphor.

The kind of metaphor which leads the non-religious to believe that Christians are obsessed with blood and suffering and torturing the son of their deity.

I remember looking at the tortured figure of Christ on a crucifix when I was a child, and wondering what sin I could possibly have committed that would need someone to die so horribly to atone for it - and how somebody else could atone for my sins anyway. It made no sense then, and it still doesn't.
I also asked why god would create a species that would turn out so badly he would need to wipe out most of them - the only reply was that he gave us free will. I supposed you could say I was denying my children free will when I stopped them putting their hand in the fire.
Two little school-friends, aged 8 and 10, died from carbon monoxide poisoning from a faulty flue and we all had to attend the requiem mass. Again, I asked the nuns why god let such a thing happen. Apparently , this was to test the faith of their parents! I have heard this nonsense put forward as an explanation of children being born grossly handicapped.
I feel a bit sorry for ministers when they have to mouth some platitudes after a horrible tragedy as they have no answers either. I remember that one women vicar lost her faith after her partner was killed in the London bombings.
Perhaps some of our Christian friends can supply some answers? Other than just saying we have to have faith......why?

Of course no-one can explain when awful things happen and the present day search for reasons, in my opinion, often leads to looking for someone to blame. Is it more comforting to a child to say, 'It's all meaningless waste'? This Christian isn't obsessed with blood and torture. Lots of churches have no images at all. The early images of Christ were often of 'Christ enthroned in heavenly splendour' rather than of the cross. I think each age and culture focuses on the images that suit them best. And if course, artists choose the image they most want to present.

It certainly made me happier when I realised there was no 'big daddy' up there allowing bad things to happen.

Life is chaotic. There is no god. Simplest, and most believable, explanation yet.

It's all meaningless is a very negative way to respond. I am agnostic and certainly don't feel that way. My children were told that I did not have the answers and neither does anyone esle; but that life is full of meaningful things - our love for our familes being just one of many: courage, kindness, humour.

Life is full of the meaning we give it. Its meaning doesn't depend on anything else. To me this is a very positive way of looking at life.

Religions seek a meaning to life and the world, which is fine - but it does mean that if you find none you are faced with coming to terms with that. In my discussions with christians and people of other religions, they always ask "But if you have no religion, what is the point of it all?" And the answer is I do not know - I have to take personal responsibility for making my life meaningful to me and to others. I am OK with that. I do not see that as negative. In fact the knowledge that we only have one life is a very good incentive to do all you can to live it well for yourself and those around you.

I have never been able to grasp why, if a deity were to exist, he/she/it is so damned opaque that people are left to create deities of their own based on their life experience and the cultural norms of their society. This has been so troublesome.

I do agree about the christian imagery that is so distasteful - blood of the lamb, images of an instrument of torture etc, sacrifices. We all, understand that these are metaphors, but they do not enhance life. I shudder when I hear of children being subjected to this stuff at school.

I thought gransnetters were surposed to be welcoming, you certainly haven't welcomed ElsieJoy! Why if you are anti christ do you bother coming on this thread and why get so upset about it, any mention of christ and it's like a red rag to a bull. Why not start a non believer thread and you can post on that you would cetainly have lots to talk about.

Christ on a cross is not a metaphor as he is said to have been crucified – and that is certainly an instrument of torture. Following the stations of the cross is a pretty gruesome activity.

The priest who said the Requiem Mass for my sister after she was killed in a road accident made no attempt to justify her death on any religious ground, on the contrary, he believed that in a world where we had been given free will God could no more actively step in to stop my sister's death than a person standing on one side of a wide canyon could stop someone on the other side who they could only see at a great distance walking over the edge.

I found that very comforting, I have never understood why, in a world where we have free will so many Christians, and I am one, should constantly be expecting God to jump in and sort their problems out. Its up to us to sort out our own problems that is what free will is all about.

There is nothing unwelcoming about stating one's opinion.

The OP has set people thinking (which is good) and offered an opportunity to debate these issues. People have said very clearly why they do not believe and their concerns.

I am sure the OP and others who share her views are able to do this too from their standpoint - and that we will all listen with interest, even though we do not necessarily share those beliefs.

People and ideas are all interesting - bring 'em on!

Absolutely Lotusflower. I do hope that Elsie Joy has not been driven away. Her post was a simple declaration of her belief and if she doesn't come back, I can't say I'm surprised.

I didn't say the crucifixion was a metaphor. I said 'washed in the blood of the lamb' was a metaphor. I sometimes get the feeling that posters are in such a hurry to share that they don't actually read the previous posts. And the churches and practices you anti-Christians describe are like no place I've ever been in!

The cruel tortures done in the name of the church are not metaphors. They were real.

Flickety, Mice

Mishap there's nothing unwelcoming about stating your opinion, true. It ain't what you say, it's the way that you (plural) say it.

As a matter of fact, 'the churches and practices described' are outwith my experience as well, since I am a former member of the Church of Scotland - and, before anyone asks, I was never an ultra-Calvinist 'wee free'. I am, nevertheless, a Humanist. There wasn't anything specific that put me off the church. I just came to the conclusion that I was mature enough to do without the 'crutches' that faith provided.

How nice to see you back, lotusflower - welcome!
I wish someone would tell me exactly how I can say 'I don't believe in god' and 'I object to having other people's beliefs foisted on me' and 'I think some religious organisations are causing harm to people' in such a way that nobody is offended. I don't take offence when people state that they do believe in god, no matter how strange their way of expressing themselves seems to me.

One of the reasons I rarely take part in any religous thread is that the version of religion I see set up and knocked down by those opposed to religious belief on Gransnet threads like this is so extreme that I can make no connection with it either

It's a tactic people like Dawkins employ as well.