Catholic schools.

It makes sense to me, cg, sort of. I guess I just went a step further: I found I didn't need any faith and in fact felt a certain sense of relief, even release, when I fully realised that not having any faith in the supernatural didn't make a scrap of difference to how I would live my life.

Greatnan - there are many Catholic parishes now without a full time 'middle man' as you put it, mine being one of them. I'm sure that many Catholics feel as I do that the church as an institution is no longer the only conduit to God and although tempted many times to turn away from the institution, I can't see myself ever turning away from my underlying faith. Does that make sense?

cg - I would be interested to hear if you feel you could go straight to god to worship without the 'middle man'. I am sure there are plenty of good catholic schools and good catholic people but it is the organisation and the power it wields over people's lives that gives cause for concern. What would it take to make you turn away from the church?

Oh dear! How sad to read that so many people have been made unhappy by religion, particularly Catholicism. I am a practising Catholic whose faith is based on love of God and neighbour. I don't agree with everything the church does and says and the scandal of child abuse is appalling and something which will shame the church for generations to come. However my belief in a loving God remains unshaken and I know that my life would have been poorer without my faith.

I was also head of a Catholic primary school where the message given to the children was that God loves them and they should love each other, regardless of creed or culture. We studied other religions as part of our RE and taught acceptance and love as principles to live by. I'm sure my school was not the only faith school where this was the case.

I was brought up as a catholic, my mother was a catholic, my father wasn't, my mother had great faith in her religion, and got great comfort from it when she was dying, she wouldn' hear anything wrong said about the catholic church or priests, I on the other hand don't practice it , haven't done for years and have no intention of going back to it. Regarding school, we got too much religion,where we were threatened with hell or pugatory for our various sins, which included having impure thoughts! it's a joke, when priests are having alot more than "impure thoughts" and it's being covered up, for example being sent away to other parishes away in some remote area, untll it's forgotten about,I'm not saying all priests are like this, I feel we were brainwashed at school and at church, my daughters were not brought up with any religion.

It's not the individuals, it is the institution. It was once more powerful than the USA plus all the multinationals put together. As an organisation it still exercises obscene power over people's lives. They would rather have a 13 year old street child have a baby, and then 10 more, than approve of contraception. They would rather she carried on having babies until it eventually killed her. That is the blunt reality.
I think the cover ups are a result of having too much power. It is built in to their organisation. There is no voice for the members in this organisation - not like the Anglicans that at least have a forum for non clergy.

My sentiments too, Greatnan!

I am sure nobody thinks badly of all priests, monks and nuns and it is not so much the individual wrong-doers that fill me with fury, but the blatant cover-ups by their superiors, who simply moved them on to another parish or school where they continued to molest children. In spite of mouthing empty words about remorse and retribution, the various dioceses world wide have tried to find every way of avoiding paying compensation to victims, even to the extent of declaring themselves bankrupt, or, best (worst?) of all, declaring the church cannot be held responsible for the crimes of the clery because they are 'employed by god'. So, we know who to blame, then!

I know many religious believers do good work, but I think they are the kind of people who would do it whatever they believed.

You can't always generalise. I knew a pair of really kindly American Dominicans in Nairobi, many years ago. We had an ecumenical study group (I was still Church of Scotland then) with Anglicans, Presbys, Methodys and these two. They were as broad-minded as any of us and had just as wicked a sense of humour.

JessM makes me want to spit [only I'm too much of a lady!]

I can believe it. You live in an ivory tower where you don't have to deal with messy stuff like nappies and menstruation. Everyone says yes father, no father, three bags full and your so wise father for several years. Then its yes your holiness you are always right your holiness... This kind of deference warps people judgement.
i was standing in an airport queue in the states watching one of them try to blag his way through the to business traveller desk so he wouldn't have to wait.
Tiny concession recently when ratzinger said that it was ok for couples to use condoms if one of them was HIV positive. How kind of him was that.

Oh yes - the priest's girlfriend/housekeeper and another priest's boyfriend were the subject matter of a 1994 film, with Tom Wilkinson and Robert Carlyle.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_%281994_film%29

i really enjoyed the film - there were a few good laughs in it, and some vary good points were made.

I just cannot believe that the catholic church leadership STILL refuses to have a bit of common sense in this matter.

Completely agree with you on that Joan. Having priests who can live a family life to its full extent would certainly change that culture
.....and there are so many instances of 'celibate' priests who take on a female 'housekeeper' or a male 'assistant' so they can be sexually active in secret.

Succinctly put Joan
Well oxon I don't think that your GS is fodder for the catholics if he is probing details in the bible to that extent.
My lovely niece went to a catholic girls school in Ireland (it was the best education option in town. Parents both atheists) .
She came home once when she was 12 and said "Do you know! I was the only girl in the class who knew that protestants were christians!".
She seems to have emerged unscathed.

What an excellent post, Joan. I agree with everything you say.

The reason I think that allowing priests to marry might help reduce child abuse, is not that I think marrying would 'cure' a pedophile. Of course it would not - in fact marrying would give a pedo even more access to children.

But allowing priests to marry would attract sexually normal men, who would otherwise never consider the priesthood, because they do not want to be celibate.

it is my personal belief that celibacy attracts those who think that they have no choice but to be celibate, because of their sexual preferences. But sex is too strong an instinct, and power creates opportunity - so they give in to their urges.

Agree with you there Jess. I called myself a humanist in the last census on the religion query. And yes, definitely feminist too!

My little grandson, though, may go to an RC school, just because my daughter thinks it is the best for education. Not really happy about this if he does, and hope he will query what he hears....he is very bright indeed and already asked me (at 7) 'who did Cain marry?...' Lets hope he goes on seeing contradictions.

I remember when I started school being in the front row at state school assembly (1944) and all of us having our folded hands put to the same tidy angle - I thought 'what's that all about?' and started being cynical right there, I think.
How about children in the US saluting the flag, though? I could see this as indoctrination...

My parents met through a church (Congregational) but never went to church, I think they had an overdose from their parents.

My grandfather refused to emigrate to South Africa and part of the reason was that his father joined the Plymouth Brethren...his father went teetotal, but still made bottles for beer...Grandpa thought it hypocritical...one family split...and some of the descendants who went to New Zealand never hear from their eldest brother still.....another family split....

I didn't think I had so much to write about this!
I do without religion, and reckon you can be a good person, or try to, without.

Some of my best in-laws are catholics but goodness me. I have no beef with people having a religious belief but as an institution the catholic church - I can only describe it as an evil empire (as far as my own value system goes. which I suppose you would call humanist/feminist) I don't bother discussing with ILs and try to steer away when MIL around. I can understand its appeal to poor and uneducated people. But I do find it very strange that educated people in this country still belong to this institution, and take their children there! (while happily using contraception, divorcing and remarrying etc) They seem to accomplish this feat by not thinking about the issues as far as i can see.

I have yet to hear of any abuser's superiors being charged with any crime, such as aiding and abetting an offender. Even the seal of the confessional can be broken if somebody is in physical or moral danger from the penitent.
I would like to see the total separation of church and state (disestablishment) - no more prayers in Parliament - at least it would save some MPs from rank hypocrisy!

Yes, someone does need to do it! This whole issue, as you so rightly say, is complex. Leaving aside any physical trauma, the long term emotional repercussions of being an abused child has, as you know, far reaching consequences in many areas. However, many, many children who are abused do not become abusers, and go on to be happy and responsible adults.

Such harrowing work at times, but someone needs to do it. Complex work because those perpetrators were often victims of abuse themselves - but as we frequently pointed out to them - most victims of abuse learn that being a responsible adult is the way to go, not getting your own back by creating more victims.

Simply stunning, isn't it Carol. I worked at the other end of the scale from you (I think) , with young adults who had been sexually abused as children. Unfortunately it is the child that holds the shame, not the paedophile.

Allowing priests to marry won't curtail abuse of children they have access to - sexual attraction to children can't be negated with adult sexual activity - if an abuser has been corrupted into sexual activity with children since being a child, the likelihood of that fixed prediliction being reversed is nil - all they can do is learn to self-regulate and control their sexually abusive urges - there isn't a cure, and paedophiles are generally frightened of intimacy and adult sexual relationships, so marriage doesn't tend to solve the problem.. Many corrupted catholic children were encouraged into the priesthood to hide their abusive behaviour, but all it did was give them free rein to abuse the children under their power, in churches and schools.

The whole movement for treatment of sex offenders in this country arose from the catholic church abuse scandals - the church sent their abusive priests to be 'cured' - this didn't work, but what the churches did do was invest in sex offender treatment and in the 80s, the NSPCC, Probation, Social Services and some voluntary agencies started developing treatment programmes, beginning with the priests and extending to the wider offender population. The catholic church led the way in developing child protection guidelines, but unfortunately continued to sweep their own scandals under the carpet. I have yet to meet a priest who has been convicted of child abuse, who doesn't continue to protest 'but God has forgiven me!' Sickening.

I think it is more than the abuse scandals that have taken practising catholics out of church and into agnosticism and utter indifference to religion.

It is the last and current popes' refusal to change the damaging culture. They refuse to consider allowing priests to marry, which could well stem some of the abuse, they are STILL anti-contraception, the thought of women priests is just not, well, thinkable. The list goes on.

Here in Australia the catholic powers-that-be denounced the third rite of reconciliation - a mass before Easter with a sort of mass confession or 'general amnesty as we called it. People had to go back to individual confession, even though they are so few priests around these days.

The church sent spies from Opus Dei to ensure that priests were not disobeying this edict. As a result of this, any strangers at mass were looked on in suspicion, in case they were Opus Dei, not just ordinary people away from home.

A lovely local Bishop, Father Bill, who was our parish priest when my kids were little, has been forced to resign because he tried to reform things. People always mattered to Bill, more than daft rules.

The Vatican 2 reforms? Forget them.

People have just quietly walked away, making no fuss, but just losing interest as they see through the idiocy.

I am one of them.

I had hoped that some practising catholics might have posted their thoughts on the crisis in the church, but I suppose there is not a lot they can say in the light of the continuing revelations of widespread abuse and cover -ups.