Adam and Eve??

That God created the world/universe for us is the cause of our ruinous exploitation of nature.

A mouse has as much right to be here as I have.

Stormystar thank you.

Jackiest I agree. I often wonder what God was thinking of!
I have many questions!🙂 And I certainly don't take the Bible literally. My faith is based on Jesus.

Jackiest

If God created this universe just for us then don't you think he went a bit OTT. The universe is huge. We can not even imagine one minute part of it. We exist on such an insignificant part of it. If it was made then it must have been made for somthing far more important than us.

I don't think God created the Universe just for u, or even created it at all.

But if people want to believe that, they can. There's nothing and no-one to stop them believing what they like, certainly not me.

Hello Nadateturbe, I’m happy you enjoyed Rumi poetry I find it as balm to my heart You may enjoy “
“Rumi bridge to the Soul, journeys into the music and silence of the heart.
His poems bridge the gap between conscious knowing and soul-deep understanding, bringing the reader into wholeness through the joy of his words, they are a bridge between the mystery of being human and the mystery of the divine. He deepens us wherever we are, beyond form and doctrine.

If God created this universe just for us then don't you think he went a bit OTT. The universe is huge. We can not even imagine one minute part of it. We exist on such an insignificant part of it. If it was made then it must have been made for somthing far more important than us.

But the Big Bang is the beginning of everything we see around us. Elegran gave a very eloquent description of why.

There is nothing to stop you accepting that, and attributing the "first spark" to any catalyst you want to, because string theory is being used to try to explain what might have come before, but nothing has been proved or disproved yet.

So there's no conflict between accepting the Big Bang as fact and believing in God, if you want to.

I might add that I don’t see that accepting the idea of the Big Bang and evolution is in any way incompatible with anyone’s Christian beliefs. If you believe in an omnipotent God, who’s to say that He wasn’t the mastermind behind it all?

I agree Witzend. I'm a Christian who believes in evolution. But for me the Big Bang is not the beginning.

I like your last post Stormystar.
Can you recommend a book of Rumi's poetry?

Luckygirl3

The allegory though is about women leading men astray and initiating evil in the world. I really do not see that as "truth or generalisations about human existence."

It is something that a male-dominated myth-making machinery initiated that has caused untold misery that still is part of our lives today.

Perhaps it would make more sense as being about how men's views of women are as tempting fruit which they can pluck and takes bites of whenever they feel peckish, and which are to blame for men yielding to temptation. It wisnae me, sir, it wis her fault, she made me dae it.

I just realised I have used one or two interesting words in that sentence - "pluck" = euphemism or rhyming slang, and "peckish" as in the original meaning of "keep your pecker up".

Luckygirl, I agree you can take that from the text . However that theme about the evil of women is past its sell by date. The theme that still makes sense is that men and women must make their own decisions out in the everyday world.

This important theme fits with Jesus whose life and death demonstrates how to return to goodness, truth, and beauty.

Rumi was an experimental innovator a philosopher a poet and Sufi master, born in Afghanistan 1207 I love this short poem
“Neither this body am I, nor Soul, nor these fleeting images passing by, nor mental images.Nor yet sentiments and the psyche’s labyrinth. Who then am I? A consciousness without origin, Not born in time, nor begotten here below.I am that which was, is and ever shall be. A jewel in the crown of the Divine Self, A star in the firmament of the luminous one.”
His poetry which Im sure many are familiar with touches my heart deeply.

The allegory though is about women leading men astray and initiating evil in the world. I really do not see that as "truth or generalisations about human existence."

It is something that a male-dominated myth-making machinery initiated that has caused untold misery that still is part of our lives today.

Nobody needs faith in supernatural beings to appreciate Genesis I.

The story of Adam and Eve has lasted this long not because it's history but because it's an allegory that will always describe the human condition.

Allegory: "the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence"

I’m curious as to why those who have absolutely no faith who do not believe in the spiritual /soul dimension of humanity bother to come onto this forum.

Because discussion is good and everyone can express their views.

I do not dismiss people's beliefs as irrational and unintelligent - I just do not share them.

There has been much research over the years looking at the brain function of believers and non-believers ---https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/your-brain-food/202205/the-brains-believers-and-non-believers-work-differently
theconversation.com/are-the-brains-of-atheists-different-to-those-of-religious-people-scientists-are-trying-to-find-out-153007

It does seem that a tendency to religious belief is grounded in our brains - and was probably a survival mechanism in that non-belief probably felt just too hellish in a world with no medicines etc.

Many people believe because that was what they were brought up with - this is certainly a huge factor as otherwise there would be no different religions in different cultures and geographical locations.

My agnosticism is based on:
- the sheer evil of so many religions at base - retribution, drastic punishments, evangelism. intolerance etc.
- the fact that I have never had anything even vaguely resembling a religious experience.
- the fact that searching for meaning is a lost cause and you could waste an entire life on it.
- the fact that a doctrine of kindness seems entirely sufficient to me.

I’m curious as to why those who have absolutely no faith who do not believe in the spiritual /soul dimension of humanity bother to come onto this forum. What drives the compulsion to dismiss believers ideas as irrational, even unintelligent. Believers simply talk a different language, it’s not about having the opposite thoughts, but of having different sorts of thoughts altogether.

To me, who was brought up nominally C of E, with parents who weren’t churchgoers but did believe, the Genesis/Adam and Eve thing was just a symbolic way of explaining - in the absence of any scientific knowledge - how it all began.

I might add that I don’t see that accepting the idea of the Big Bang and evolution is in any way incompatible with anyone’s Christian beliefs. If you believe in an omnipotent God, who’s to say that He wasn’t the mastermind behind it all?

Grantanow

Despite some fundamentalist Christians' wacky ideas Bible stories like Adam & Eve were not meant literally. At most they were attempts to explain alleged events to an uneducated population. Don't waste time trying to make them fit a literal interpretation?

I get that.

But why, if these were attempts to explain the world to an uneducated population, do people still stand and spout this nonsense and then all say "This is the word of the lord"? - this is what happens in Christian churches.

We all go to the cathedral carol service each year as the choir is beautiful and the acoustics quiet marvellous. But still the old nonsense in the readings: women to blame for evil stands out! People stand up and read this stuff!

We all must find our own path.

Absolutely Farzanah you have found for yourself what constitutes love of life. Others have discovered it through science and spirituality. How wonderful.

Luckygirl3

Atheism can be a positive decision rather than simply a rejection of religion.

Indeed it can Luckygirl. I am a positive humanist and love and appreciate my life, and believing this is the only life I have makes it even more worthwhile and precious to me. I respect those who have religious beliefs as long as they do not cause harm.

I think I am very much on Volver’s wavelength that science and its methods of critical enquiry, logical reasoning and empirical evidence is a more reliable way of understanding our world than the work of a supernatural creator.

Belief in God basically is belief there is order not chaos. Genesis I tells it poetically. You cannot interpret Genesis I as if it were some sort of science. It's poetic language.

If you take a look at other civilisations and cultures, all of them attempt to satisfy human curiosity about how they began. It was obvious to them how their group continued and increased, but how did it all start?

The first creative beings were usually female ones, because new life came from women giving birth. The men didn't always go along with that, which led to the male deities. These were generally more aggressive and demanded more obedience and worship, of course, When Adam disobeyed ( though he managed to blame it on Eve) humans were chucked out of their Eden paradise and forced to toil for a living, and, for women, to bring forth children in agony.

Despite some fundamentalist Christians' wacky ideas Bible stories like Adam & Eve were not meant literally. At most they were attempts to explain alleged events to an uneducated population. Don't waste time trying to make them fit a literal interpretation?

Atheism can be a positive decision rather than simply a rejection of religion.

I also think that there is a tendency to view atheism as life without meaning, when it is anything but, I dont want to turn into Ricky Gervais here but there are many ways to find meaning without God. Meaning in our connections to others, meaning in nature, meaning in trying to do the right thing.
No it's no good I sound ridiculous