only daughter distanced herself and tgecwholecfamily followed suit.

MovingOn

I agree with much of what you say, nobody should stay in a toxic relationship, be it with your parents, spouse, siblings, or anyone. Some relationships reach the point of no return, and then, I agree, best to cut all ties.

But this has to be an absolute last resort, there’s a difference between someone being irritating, and someone ruining your life

If, for example, you dislike your in-laws, to the point of hating to be in the same room, you don’t have to see them, but why stop your partner and children seeing them?

Wow MovingOn2018 Very very disturbing posts from you

If stating that people deserve to end any relationship that no longer makes them happy and reserve the right to be left alone is labelled as my posts being very very disturbing then some people had bigger issues than I thought they did. You cannot force your will on another persons life. Evidently this small fact isn't common sense to all. I'm not sure why some believe that they are entitled to be in other peoples lives, simply for they gave birth to them, and want a relationship irrespective of the emotional toil they may cause another. Totally unbelievable! But let's all sugar coat it to avoids stepping on peoples feelings.

Tedber would it be okay of I insisted on having some sort of relationship with you? Where or not you wanted to? I mean we get rid of friends, co-workers, spouses and everyone else - But somehow feel our children should put up with us for we are supposed to be one big family.

People are allowed to cut of that which makes them sin. Even if it were their very own hand. Remember that always!

You are responsible for your own happiness too, and ending a relationship and walking away (for any reason) is not a form of abuse.

Wow MovingOn2018 Very very disturbing posts from you. Have no idea what your background is but I think your issues lie deep and perhaps you are trying to move on from something and bringing it to the table here! Perhaps you aren't exactly 'moving on'

Maybe you need to start a new thread of your own?

I am not unsympathetic to your feelings but at the moment I am feeling sorry for Peonyrose who is a lot less complex and was just asking for some advice. To be given all this 'deep' probing must be upsetting to her t.b.h.

Peonyrose Non of us know for sure what the problem is but I stand by my previous comments - just continue to be a great friend and encourage her to move onwards and upwards. That is all you can do hon.

Some people have different personas - they behave differently at home with their kids compared to people on the street compared to friends

Exactly! Classic sociopaths as another poster mentions above. One has to at times live with some people to see them for their true colors, because they will always wear a mask and clothe themselves with an entirely different personality, every morning before they step put of their house. A lot of effort is normally put into keeping this ugly back at home, and waiting on their return.

You're right Hithere there are different definitions of abuse. An abusive parent for example may regard their behaviour as disciplining and an abusive EAC may see their behaviour as merely exercising their right to walk away

the manner in which some of these posts are twisted into something else makes me almost understand why some ACs cut their parents off. It's must be really exhausting to have to deal with some mindsets.

And I won't comment any further to this poster for you just have a way of playing with people as words/explanations and twisting them mean something completely different. The goal is typically to drive your point through and fixate that into someone's mind - complete mind games!

Who is right? Does the parent override the child's view of events and the child's right to act accordingly?

No they don't! But most of the estranged parents believe that they can. Examples of these cases are where an AC says that xy and z happened and they are accused of "recreating history," or "believing a lie," or having been brainwashed by their spouse to believe something else. Then they are branded as being "abusive," for they finally got the courage to walk away from their abuser AND their controlling mind games

Another element of narcissistic abuse! Lots of traits flying here, there and everywhere around here!

Sadly my m.i.l. has experienced the pain that no contact brings, having been cut out of ES's life and the lives of 2 of her GGC.

Me too elizsnan I've had a difficult relationship with my m.i.l. for almost 39 years but would have never have considered cutting her out of our lives.

Wouldn't have done that to her, to our children and certainly would never have put Mr. S. in such a difficult situation.

You're right Hithere there are different definitions of abuse. An abusive parent for example may regard their behaviour as disciplining and an abusive EAC may see their behaviour as merely exercising their right to walk away.

Another issue is the definition of abuse.
Some of the abusers justify it as disciplining or parenting.
Example (I don't mean to start a debate): spanking.
For the spanker (new word), it may be discipline, for the spankee (another new word), it is abuse.
Other issue is for some abusive parents, they did something with different intentions as it came across, so it is really abusive as they did not mean it that way.
Who is right? Does the parent override the child's view of events and the child's right to act accordingly?
No, it doesn't. I am sure the estranged person thinks it does.

Some people have different personas - they behave differently at home with their kids compared to people on the street compared to friends.

Just because you know somebody as a friend, it does not mean you know them 100% in any other context

Peonyrose, your friend is very fortunate to have your understanding company. May be if you keep telling her she still has (whatever interests her or whatever she is good at) to live for she will absorb some hope for the future from what you say.

It's terrible for her that she has invested so much of herself in her daughter, and then this happened.

I fell out with my mother in law for 3 years. I never ever stopped my husband taking both children to see her. Do not understand depriving all contact unless the person is abusive.

Moving on, your comments about being heavily invested in my friends relationship and that it could me myself I am talking about. How you arrived at that conclusion on the 3 or 4 posts I made, I don't know, I don't need to justify my action, you are quick to judge. She is aware of the estrangement forum now, very much hope she gets the support she needs

You're absolutely right! You don't need to justify any of your actions to anyone. I also did not judge you. What I said was: "I just hope that this is not a personal script of your own life, but in third party narration" - so not exactly sure how you took this as a form of judgement towards you. I'm glad she's a part of a support group and hope she gets the help she needs.

I didn't take your words out of context MovingOn or try to get them to fit into a different meaning

Your last paragraph in last nights' post of 22.05 is an example of the point I was making

You did take it all out of context. It's obviously clear. O agreed with agnurse post and indicated that AC knew her mother better than OPs claim of knowing her "friend," for 10 years. You took this and twisted it into your own narrative by saying and I quote:

Like agnurse you appear to be more than happy to associate sociopath behaviour with the mother in the case rather than her D

How is this response even correlated to any part of my post?

And no need to quote my last paragraph on last nights post of 22.05 as an example - for the original post that you took completely out of context was posted at 18.34 not 22.05. So your comment was made before you could extract a convenient example from a later post I made.

Nobody should be bullied/harassed/guilted/stalked or made to feel uncomfortable in any way, simply to participate in a relationship that they don't want to have, and cause another party is hurting over it's broken dynamics.

People have the right to end any relationship for any reason as they deem fit. Or are you advocating for her daughter to sacrifice hers and her entire families mental and emotional health just to keep one party - her mother happy? Or that she should continue to accommodate her, and make her mother happy in the manner that she (the mother wants) whether or not the daughter is happy? To prioritize her mothers happiness over her very own? Or what exactly is your main and exact point? She is NOT responsible for her mothers happiness, and there's too little background to call her a bully. And assuming she was truly a bully then why does her mother even want to be around her?

I'm glad she's rebuilding her life. One can't simply look through the broken lenses of the older individual. Her daughter may had broken lenses of her own and may need that distance to maintain hers a her families sanity.

Moving on, your comments about being heavily invested in my friends relationship and that it could me myself I am talking about. How you arrived at that conclusion on the 3 or 4 posts I made, I don't know, I don't need to justify my action, you are quick to judge. She is aware of the estrangement forum now, very much hope she gets the support she needs.

Smileless your post at 19:06 is spot on...

Absolutely HEARTBREAKING. Sadly I agree with a lot of other comments that there is actually nothing you can do OP other than be a good friend.

Sometimes there simply <aren't> any reasons behind NC. (have witnessed this myself but too long and complicated to go into now and nothing to do with me directly) It could be due to mental illness (as I think is the case in the example I am thinking of) and not specifically any one thing that anybody has done.

I really don't know how you cope in such circumstances but in a practical sense you have two choices (your friend am talking about) You either sit and torment yourself for ever more wondering IF, WHY? WHAT? asking questions you may never get answers to ...OR you can try to live as great a life as you can for yourself. I am pretty sure which one I would take but am not underestimating the pain by any means.

See if your friend is open to positive suggestions about moving forward. Doesn't mean 'closing' the door, she can still send occasion cards with small gifts if she shouldn't send with the expectation of a response. This may (or may not) come in time.

I wish you both well and fwiw I would have suggested she went to see her too on the basis that face to face is better than texts or phone calls...but...no more!

I hope she found some help and comfort from this forum Peonyrose. If there's no change in her D's decision, the road to rebuilding her life and eventually finding peace and happiness is a long and at times difficult one.

She'll need all the help and support she can find and without a doubt she'll find it in you.

I didn't take your words out of context MovingOn or try to get them to fit into a different meaning.

Your last paragraph in last nights' post of 22.05 is an example of the point I was making.

Just be there for your friend Peony and don't beat yourself up about what happened. You were doing your best, which is all any of us can do, and I am sure your friend appreciates all of your support. Try to encourage her to re-build her life, as best she can, by developing interests. It will take time for her to heal, but hopefully she will in time, or at least the wounds will scab over.

She needs to give her daughter some breathing space - it's the only way, difficult though it is. Please see if you can persuade her to go for counselling, as situations like this are akin to bereavement, even though the lost one is still living, and are very painful.

There is every chance that, in time, she and her daughter will be reconciled or that the DGC will get in touch, so she needs to stay well and strong. I have seen posters on other threads produce a 'memory box' with cards and photos for the DGC. Is that something you could encourage her to do. Try to encourage her to be positive but realistic.

Well said Peonyrose, I have to say, I’d never heard of no contact till the last few months, apart from my situation with my mother, which isn’t really the same, I don’t know anyone, or even heard of anyone affected by it.

I’m shocked and saddened by some of the stories I’ve read on gransnet, I don’t know how some people cope with their situations

But I still feel, that in most cases, it can’t be completely one sided, it’s hard to imagine a sound stable relationship disintegrating so completely and permanently , all seems so sad.

I spoke with my friend, she said she is going to try hard to rebuild her life and she has looked at this forum.
Thankyou all. I do admire you, I am just pleased you are there for each other, as sympathetic and understanding as someone who hasn't experienced the rejection, nothing compares to actually going through it, I know that.

Refusing to be a part of someone's life is not bullying. You can't force a relationship on someone. That's abusive.

Thank you Hithere. Your post sums all of this quite we'll. There's too much judgment and speculation being based off off of a one sided story that has very little, background that's pointed towards making one party look like a villain and the other as a victim.

A few years ago, one of our daughters took great offence at something we did, not directly affecting her at all, but she thought we were being unfair, and this resulted in a few difficult conversations, and some nasty emails.

My husband, who hates any discord, took a day off work, and drove the three hour journey, to try and sort things out, he did tell her he was going, and she wasn’t best pleased, but he did make a bit of progress, and gradually things returned to normal

Had I heard that he’d been arrested for attempting to talk to his daughter, I wouldn’t have believed it could be possible.

Sometimes you have to keep trying, especially if you feel there’s far too much to lose

Like agnurse you appear to be more than happy to associate sociopath behaviour with the mother in the case rather than her D

Read my post again and don't take my comments out of context. I'm sure you understood my point with regards to that and if not, a simple request to clarify it would suffice, as opposed to taking my words and trying to fit them into a different meaning.

Although I find it increasingly irritating the way agnurseappears to always leap to the defense of the estranging AC, I kind of get it because her husband is estranged from his own father

Why do you find it necessary?

People reserve the right to be left alone. You give a sorry description about never knowing how it feels to be shut out, am sure her AC can also comment on the mom not knowing how painful it is to be harassed after going NC. So because mom feels left out its OK to force her will onto someone else? What about her daughters feelings?

Peonyrose This is why both you and your friend need to look for help elsewhere, on open forums like this it often turns into a bunfight with people projecting all over the place. I do think that it is over the top to suggest that knocking on the daughter's door once to ask to discuss things could be a police matter. It isn't the same as continually attempting to make contact or attempting to waylay the children. I also find it hard to understand why some people think it would be easy to just accept you aren't wanted and walk away. I do think chasing and pushing for contact isn't usually helpful but support is usually needed. Some posters just don't seem to understand how devastating estrangement can be.

We only ever know one side of the story and even if the mother in this case has thrown money at the situation and offered babysitting rather than the daughter asking for it, that does not alter the fact that the D took the money and her mother's offers of help when it suited her.

To allow your mother a relationship with her GC and then take it away is cruel. Goodness knows its bad enough when you were never given the chance to have a relationship with your GC.