only daughter distanced herself and tgecwholecfamily followed suit.

Pantglas1 Of course SF has no monopoly to the term FOG. I just copied a good explanation. Not see a 2 way street, parents had the upper hand, now when children are adults the dont have to put up with FOG and many wont accept it.

Very interesting Norah but I’m sure Susan Forward doesn’t have the monopoly on the words Fear Obligation and Guilt.

Those feelings are also felt by parents/grandparents when their children behave in such a way as to leave them walking on eggshells, afraid to say no to their every demand etc. As Smileless pointed out it’s a two way street.

Smileless, Perhaps you misunderstood the term FOG.

From the Susan Forward Book. Fear is a survival instinct that preserved some of our ancestors in moments of extreme danger. So fear can be a good thing. However, prolonged fear - also known as stress or anxiety, is not so good for us and can lead to increased risk of long term health problems.

Obligation comes from an innate sense of community responsibility. We are born with an instinctive sense of obligation to those around us. Historically, humans who isolated themselves from a community were in much greater danger of perishing. Only those who contributed to the community were accepted by the community. As a result, our communities have evolved in such a way that those who have a strong sense of community responsibility are more likely to be accepted by others and ultimately to produce children. Obligation has served our ancestors well in forming communities. However, when a ruthless person takes advantage of our instinctive sense of obligation, they can manipulate our gut reactions to do things which do not always help us thrive and prosper.

Guilt comes from the same root as obligation. Most of us feel guilt when we do something that we think hurts others or disappoints of others. Our societies have evolved in such a way that it is not socially acceptable to deliberately hurt another person and those who do are often incarcerated, ostracized and condemned by others. However, our instinctive gut reactions of guilt can also be activated when we refuse to help another person. This is where most Non-PD's experience guilt because often in the process of setting boundaries, Non-PD's will have to make a choice of whether or not to give another person, who suffers from a personality disorder, something which they want, which comes at a great personal cost to the Non-PD if they say "no".

FOG can produce a sense of dread and hopelessness and make you do and say things that you are uncomfortable with.

As you see from the read, some need to go NC. For their own self-preservation and health.

"Its sad that the daughter has cut her mother off, but I'll never understand why people fight so hard to be a part of something that they are no longer wanted or needed. And if she feels its bullying when why just not leave her alone and put an end to this alleged bullying?" The crux to the matter, why fight to be unwanted. Find happiness elsewhere.

It’s amazing how many people simply never question the fact that they have never met/uncle/cousin/grandparent, they just accept it, they may question it when they’re older, but sometimes it may be too late

Smileless, good post. No one, but no one should take abuse from anyone. It is cruel to cut anyone off without a word. I do however, feel that gc will be able one day, will see what has happened is not right, it could take years, but one day they will question where you are, unless they turn out like their parents,but things are more in the open now and talked about, I know if I grew up and found out I had grandparents, I would seek them out and decide for myself. I hope very much that those suffering estrangements have their long lost gc come and find them.

Hetty58 I think that is more common than people think. My sister and I are only a year apart and brought up together but we had totally different childhoods. My sister does admit that I was bullied but there is a lot that she denies happened although it was in the open.
It is not unusual for one child to be removed from a family for abuse and the other children to be well cared for.

My brother and sister had/have very different opinions from me about our parents. There was never any estrangement but big sis (the eldest) worshipped them and thought them wonderful, I (middle child) made a big effort to tolerate them but never let them babysit and bro (youngest) was a very distant, occasional visitor. It wasn't helped by the obvious mutual dislike between Mum and his partner.

Even now, with parents gone, my sister would say we had a marvellous childhood, I'd say it was OK and my brother only remembers hurt, humiliation and abuse. If I mention incidents, she denies that they happened or changes/lightens the story, trying to say that I remember it incorrectly. It's all very odd.

I've been thinking about this FOG and what appears to be missing on this thread is that there are plenty of EP's and EGP's living in it themselves.

Fear, that they are going to be cut out of their AC's and GC's lives. Obliged to take whatever is thrown at them in case NC is the result. Guilt that when they are finally estranged that they weren't good enough parents.

Peonyrose, FOG is a valid reason to NC.

Hithere I wonder why any sister would find your parents actions to be acceptable? This is a 'why the world turns round' all people are different.

I think this thread shows that people have different ideas to what is this latest reason for estrangement, FOG. Never heard if it, but some of the people that estrange seem to my mind do so for very feeble thing that are just annoying. I would sort out there and then , and if I couldn't just, say let it go, then I would sit down and explain how it wasn't acceptable and what are we going to do about it. If is was neglect or something awful, you would not be having unsupervised visits anyway, in fact no visits, a lot seem to be when grandchildren are being looked after and misdeamorsvdiscovered afterwards, that in itself says a lot. I think more understanding, less judgement and more dialogue would avoid these separations. Also making any child the centre of your universe and your expectations, is it any wonder they become to believe it's all about them and selfish.

Not sure how your second to last sentence is gonna work Hithere - when the become adults surely they will make their own choices/decisions? Or will you be as controlling as your parents?

Both smileless and agnurse are right.

Being siblings and being raised by the same parents does not mean we follow the same decision process and reach the same conclusions.
She is very much aware how dysfunctional my parents are.

I respect how she chooses how to raise her family - despite not agreeing with her decisions - and she does the same with me.
My parents will never meet and have never met my kids.

I truly do not want to highjack this thread. My apologies, Peony!

There's no need to shout agnurse. Her sister knows they lied and still has a relationship with them.

Hithere has pointed out that her parents actually LIED to her sister, and continue to lie.

People who did that would NEVER be allowed around my children. EVER.

Yet from what you've posted Hithere your sister does not share your view of your parents.

I do wonder why FOG takes over (fear, obligation, guilt). I feel none to my parents, they knew better than to have a FOG agenda.

Hithere NC seems a minimum. Some say they have no idea, they were just being GP, what happens at nan's stays at nan's. Never down to just nothing, there are 2 sides, as you show.

Hithere, your story is frightening and, IMO, unforgivable! I'm sorry the GPs are so selfish, uncaring, and dishonest. I can totally see cutting off GPs like that, as sad as it is, b/c they are, clearly, a detriment to the child.

@dolcelatte,

No, that is something my parents are incapable of.

Their lack of empathy is very well disguised but shows very often.

Peonyrose "abnormally dysfunctional grandparents" sums it up.

Peonyrose

HiThere and Moving on, your very long detailed posts on abnormally disfunctional grandparents is quite frankly amazing. One wonders how they managed to raise adult children. With claims like this I can see the attraction of losing contact the with some children

No one said these were "abnormal and dysfunctional grandparents." Those are your words and your claims - not mines.

Also parents who are perfectly normal and were not dysfunctional AND were obviously capable of raising great adult children - can also end up being cut of for several reasons.

Some grandparents (for example -before someone misquotes my words) have difficulty letting go of their parental role once their AC are adults, and feel the need to try and continue parent their now married adult children. Others may have issues coping with the empty nest syndrome, and want their family intact like it used to be prior to ACs being adults. Then they become intrusive and overbearing - get defensive and retaliate when normal boundaries are placed, and continuously break these boundaries for they aren't used to anyone telling them what to do/feel they know what's best for other peoples children (perfect example on the post of grandparents feeding their grandchild with too much fruit after being told not to - then lying about it). When enough is enough they get cut off (despite your claims of them having raised adult children).

Others just dislike/hate their ACs spouse and this in itself creates conflict for everyone. So when grandma becomes toxic, and brings more conflict than support to the ACs marriage, then contact is typically reduced - with NC following swiftly when nothing changes. I mean the list of estrangement is ENDLESSLY long. Too many factors come into play.

But back to your comment, one doesn't need to wonder how they raised AC, for that doesn't diminish the fact that somewhere along the lines the relationship became too toxic for all parties involved.

But its obvious we see things very differently (as we are all entitled to), so I'm done with this thread and hope your "friend," gets the help she needs. Practice self care and don't let it consume you. All the best!

HiThere and Moving on, your very long detailed posts on abnormally disfunctional grandparents is quite frankly amazing. One wonders how they managed to raise adult children. With claims like this I can see the attraction of losing contact the with some children.

@Hithere - Feeding the fruit was stupid and wholly unacceptable. The GP must have felt mortified and so guilty, isn't that punishment enough?