should the children be more important than the relationship

reiki I refuse to get into any arguments with people about single parents I spent years doing it and found nothing changed some people's ideas. I actually find some of the perfect partner postings a bit unbelievable. Most people I know in relationships are like jings. As a friend of mine puts it "I really love him but sometimes he does my head in".

Im back as ethel,thank goodness. As I said above some people are being bitchy, not the majority though. We all do the best we can with our lives just some of us can manage without a man. You do not have to be in a relationship to have a good life.
When I was ill last year I considered having a relationship, it would have been nice to have someone to cook a meal or take me to hospital appts, but having thought about it I managed very well on my own. I don't like being 'we' I like being 'me'.

I haven't read through all the post, as yet, but to respond to the original question, I think it's basically up to the couple. If they agree that the kids are to come first, great. But I they decide that they're going to put their marriage first, that's fine, too. In my view, he most important thing is that they're on the same page about this and it's not a source of conflict

That being said, I don't believe that prioritizing one factor should mean that anyone gets hurt. I agree with you, OP, that it can be hard for under 5s to be away from their parents for an extended time period. And so, I don't think this is fair to either the child or you, the person who will be taking care of her/dealing with her feelings.

But what can you do? Nothing but love her and entertain her as much as possible during the visit. Please let us know how it goes..

I haven't read the whole thread but just want to pick you up on your last point ethel.
It's not a case of choosing to be either 'we' or 'me'.
It's possible to be in a relationship but still have your own interests, friends and identity, to enjoy being 'we' and 'me'.
Most of my friends in RL are like that and I'm sure many on Gransnet are too.

Welcome back ethel, glad you managed to ditch that reikilady.

Every family is different, and every family was different in past times too.

ethel's family for generations seems to have been as she describes it -

"the father was never seen and the mother was the carer, the father just being seen on special occasions and ruled with an iron will, the kids were scared of them. My granny used to tell me what it was like for her, when father was in, there was to be no noise, children were to be seen and not heard etc etc."

- but mine wasn't - neither set of grandparents were like that, so neither of my parents were. Same with my husband's family - so we both came to marriage with a different picture to the one ethel is talking about.

That is what I meant when I spoke of us copying the attitudes we met in childhood, whether we mean to or not. But it doesn't have to be like that, if we recognise them in time.

Yes, "we" is not the opposite of "me" - sometimes things are for "me" or for "you" and sometimes for "us" - by give and take, or exchange, or just good old co-operation. It is not a war zone with the strongest grabbing all the power and annihilating the other.

Trisha I totally agree that even good relationships are rarely perfect.

I know my husband and I have certainly had our ups and downs over the years but after all this time we're in a good place . The small niggley stuff has been worked out so there's not much left to disagree on ( I do occasionally to keep him on his toes .

My Gran used to say ' marriage is not a bowl of cherries, sometimes your husband gives you the pip !!

My children come before anyone else in the world. And neither did I have my children to send to boarding school. The thought horrifies me when I hear of little ones going off at the age of 7. My son for special education needs it was necessary for him to weekly board at the age of 11, and I cried myself to sleep every Sunday night for the first term, until I started taking him back on a Monday morning. Having said that I have known Army families that are very close and as per normal the children were usually sent back to England for schooling.

However, I would have been screaming up the wall if I hadn't had my DiLs to come and take over several times a year so I had a day off, a week off or whatever. I was also a single parent for a few years and even more needed time off. Bringing up children is the most exhausting, the most rewarding thing in the world and the biggest responsibility we will ever be given to make them a fit person to be part of society. But it can be excruciatingly boring! We all need a break at times.

When I got together with my second husband, who was a brilliant stepfather, we travelled on Business a few times a year and always added on a few days holiday.

I am sure most marriages benefit from a few days away from the children - just to rest, relax and have some dedicated time. When you are living as a family however good if they are not his/her children it is even more necessary to have some time without the children.

I don't think it harms children whatever their age, and in fact helps them gain a little more independence.

Surely the big benefit to children is parents who have had a break and come back refreshed and therefore more engaged.
Nuff said.

'When I was ill last year I considered having a relationship,it would have been nice to have someone to cook a meal or take me to hospital appointments but having thought about it I managed very well on my own' .This sentence of yours concerns me Ethel.

Yes, ethel I remember you posting that previously. You thought it would be a good idea to buy yourself some help while you needed it, then dump him when you recovered. It may have been a bit of black humour, of course, not a genuine plan.

If a man had suggested that he would use your affection while he needed your care and then dump you, what would you have told him? (You may need to use a few asterisks and acronyms in your reply - don't want to get censored)

There are a lot of generalities being spouted about fathers and relationships as if they are facts. Every family was different, then as now.
My mother is well over 90yrs and doesn't fit the pattern at all. Her father was a farmer and so around all the time, he was the soft touch- her mother was the strict one.
When I was a single parent I needed a break even more- when there is a father around you can at least leave him to do baths and bedtimes, cook a meal etc.
Since DH1 died young I certainly needed to make sure that DS had plenty of contact with his parents, with and without me being around- (and with his uncles, aunts cousins etc on the paternal side). They came to our house and looked after DS when DH2 and I went in honeymoon (something we shouldn't have done according to some people on here!) Later on the came and looked after all 3 children. Everyone gained from this. What is to dislike about having extra grandparents?
Ethel appears to have a very dim view of men - all men.
In my world you settle down with the man you love and you have a child together as the expression of that love. You love and nurture that child equally. I get the impression that some people want the child, and the man is the 'necessary evil' who they then hope will provide the money, but not be hands on and equal.
I find the story of the Christmas cards appalling. If the man wrote his name, the child's name and then his wife's name - telling her that she was now second place we would call it abusive. Men seem to be supposed to take it. It is very dysfunctional and you feel very sorry for the poor child.

I too remember that comment by Ethel. And I didn't for one minuit think it was black humour.

I don't think it was black humour - it is all to do with 'what is the relationship going to give me' - rather than 'that is an interesting person, worth getting to know'.

I don't think it was black humour. It was 'what can I get out of this relationship' rather than 'that seems an interesting person, worth getting to know better'.

Sorry - I seem to have a problem with posting twice.

We have just looked after our two grandsons for 8 days whilst their mum was abroad. The 3 year old asked after his mum twice and the 5 year old sent his mum a mini video saying he loved her and after that he didn't mention her at all. Their dad was still here but working most of the time.

I only wish someone had offered to look after our son so we could have had a weekend off, but it wasn't an expectation in the 1970s IMO.

Just had a wonderful text from DS who with DDinL have just taken their boys out and at the wishing well the 3 year old said 'I wish nanny and grandad were still here'.

My confession since getting home I am in my pjs and it us only 4.11 and slept through the rugby !

We have encouraged our DD and son in law to have breaks as a couple. Think it's brilliant for their relationship to have 'couple' time together. They always return so excited to see their little boys knowing we have enjoyed having time with them. I think the whole family benefits and don't think the boys suffer in the least and are equally excited when mummy & daddy return.

Get the children used to staying with other people from a young age, you never know when you might need them to be where you know they will be happy and looked after. My eldest son (from 1st marriage) stayed with his paternal grandparents from about a month old, good for both sides, and when I had to be in hospital for over a week when he was 18 months old there was no worries over his welfare.
My younger son never had the chance to stay with anyone and hated being away from home (had to pick him up from first sleep over at age 7) and never had the same close relationship with his grandparents as my eldest did with his.
Does everyone good to have time apart.

Reiki, the post was not about single parenting, a subject I have had experience of, but whether the child was more important than the relationship. I happen to think they are both equally important to each other and to the child.

I think that the children are as important as the relationship and that, ultimately, the best thing you can do for your children is to stay with their father ( providing he isn't a monster obviously).

If you have only one child then you probably get plenty of quality time with your partner anyway but if you've got two or more children it's much harder and parents do need to take a bit of a break away from the children from time to time. I love having my grandchildren so that their parents can have a break. It's lovely to see how refreshed the parents seem when they come back. (As opposed to me and OH who are exhausted by then!)

Yes - I remember the comment that ethel made previously about starting a relationship just to get someone to look after her when she was unwell and then ditch him. And now we have a situation where she apparently told her OH that her would have to take second fiddle to their child.

I believe these to be a wind-up. It is beyond credence that anyone might think or behave in this way.

Beyond credence that anyone thinks it is a healthy parent/child relationship to go as far as signing a Christmas card mother, child, father. (I would say narcissistic mother).

It's a balance but I believe relationship s that pre date the arrival of children should be nutured so to maintain a loving and stable environment for the children to flourish.

I never had the luxury of a "night off" from being a mother and boy could I have done with one. I was 18 when my son was born and did not have a friend in the world as I was unable to take part in anything away from
My son and work . My parents did not babysit although strangely my grandma babysat my sister and I a lot allowing my parents lots of private/ free/ going out time. I vowed that when I had my own grandchildren I would babysit regularly to allow my son and dil time to themselves which I believe benefits the family as a whole. I'm not talking holidays away just nights when they can have a meal together, go for a drink, do some Christmas shopping or indeed go to work ( as they both work shifts). Also I think
spending time away from mum and dad benefits the children too. They get to see the wider family ( such as it is) they get to do things with my DH and I that they couldn't / wouldn't do with their parents.
Saying that you would never leave your child with anyone is a bit silly imho as no one knows what's around the corner do they? At least my grandchildren are used to being with other people and in a family emergency they would not become stressed by staying with us or the other DGP's . My mum has dedicated her entire life to my dad to the point that she can barely think for herself . My sister and I never felt part of "it". I think the same can be said the other way around and that children would think that their mum belonged to them and them alone, to the point that the mum
Is no longer a person in her own right but simply the mother of Johnny or Jane.

Beyond credence that anyone thinks it is a healthy parent/child relationship to go as far as signing a Christmas card mother, child, father. (I would say narcissistic mother).
or else stressed and not thinking straight, as I was one Christmas trying to cope with too much, wrote DM's Christmas cards for her and put them in the wrong envelopes. At least everyone most people saw the funny side.