This is low, even for Reform

Cossy

Plevey08

Hmm. Further options....
Physiotherapy
OT
Dieticians
Speech & Language

Again, depends where you live, which trust you come under and your own GP.

It’s not good enough, but it could be far far worse.

Again, depends where you live, which trust you come under and your own GP.

Oh yes, you're right.

But aren't all trusts making similar 'changes'?

Plevey08

Hmm. Further options....
Physiotherapy
OT
Dieticians
Speech & Language

Again, depends where you live, which trust you come under and your own GP.

It’s not good enough, but it could be far far worse.

Hmm. Further options....
Physiotherapy
OT
Dieticians
Speech & Language

MaizieD

When I went through this with Catgtp it appears that Farage has said a number of different things over the past decade ir so.

Ah! that's interesting - I must have a conversation with the bot too.

So maybe it's not a conspiracy to be suspicious.

I think he's insisted that healthcare would still be available to all at-the-point-of-need, but that might not include all the services/departments that are currently available. My late partner's chiropodist told him a couple of years ago, that even those who are blind are not guaranteed state-funded podiatry, so a Farage treasury has 'options'.

Exactly. This was all two years ago when he wasn’t an MP:

archive.is/20240607210801/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/07/how-nigel-farage-backed-french-healthcare-system-could-work/

Probably some pillow talk with his French girlfriend among all the chatter about his new Surrey house bought (probably) with Harborne’s £5 million bung.

Reform make it up as they go alone. What they say one day could change the next just as the 2024 election “contract” was hastily withdrawn as unworkable.

There is only one thing they are consistent on and we all know what that is.

When I went through this with Catgtp it appears that Farage has said a number of different things over the past decade ir so.

Mamie

I am quite surprised that Farage would want to introduce the French system which is essentially socialist. For most things the state pays 70% and if you can afford it you pay a top-up "mutuelle" insurance which covers the rest. If you can't afford it the state pays 100%. Serious and chronic illnesses are funded at 100% for everyone. Employers and employees pay significant contributions towards the equivalent of National Insurance. Everyone carries a Carte Vitale health card and the link between state and top-up is electronic.

I am quite surprised that Farage would want to introduce the French system which is essentially socialist.

That surprised me, too. I thought he would favour the US model of healthcare.

He doesn't though strictly follow the political brand he advocates, so who knows why he favours a European model?

He could however - if he ever led a government - change tack, but I don't want to become a conspiracy theorist. And yet...

M0nica

Meandrogrog I literally had no choice. The NHS doctor who misdiagnosed me initially, refused to take any notice of the other symptoms I had that conflicted with her diagnosis, even though she knew they were causing me considerable pain, If my pain was to be relieved and the problem dealt with I had no alternative but seek private treatment because there was no way she was going to refer me on, and any further referal through my GP would be seen as questioning the original doctor's decision.

I know now that i could have requested a second opinion, but at the time with both DH and DD also being treated for the results of NHS neglect, I doubt I could have done it.

I am so sorry for your experiences, and hope you feel better now. I had not wanted to go privately either but like you felt I had no choice, although having said that, my care was so good that I feel it really helped in what was a tough recovery.

I agree with you about paramedics, they really are the unsung heroes and heroines of the NHS and deserve far better salaries, on a par with doctors really.

Meandrogrog I literally had no choice. The NHS doctor who misdiagnosed me initially, refused to take any notice of the other symptoms I had that conflicted with her diagnosis, even though she knew they were causing me considerable pain, If my pain was to be relieved and the problem dealt with I had no alternative but seek private treatment because there was no way she was going to refer me on, and any further referal through my GP would be seen as questioning the original doctor's decision.

I know now that i could have requested a second opinion, but at the time with both DH and DD also being treated for the results of NHS neglect, I doubt I could have done it.

My DH travelled to work on the train, with a man he met who worked for 10 long years on parts of the NHS IT systems as a CONTRACTOR. Almost 85% of his IT colleagues were contractors.

Whilst I understand that there wouldn’t be permanent jobs for all, these people couldn’t have been employed permanently, they could have been taken on as fixed term employees instead of open ended contracts.

I knew a man doing the same for one of our large banks, again open ended contracts.

I completely agree about the IT, too.

When it comes to cost there has to be along view. Which would be more expensive over, say, 10 years. Struggling on with the waste and inefficiency of the present system (though I have to say that it seems to work well in our part of the UK) or investing in a new and comprehensive system which would save money and improve patient care and outcomes over time?

Though I'd also wonder about the risks inherent in procuring a completely new system. The example of the Post Office and Horizon doesn't inspire confidence...

Plevey08

I believe the first thing any government needs to do re the NHS, is invest in their IT system.
It borders on the inadequate, at best, and potentially dangerous.
I and many others I know have experienced concerning incidents as in-patients and/or out-patients.
Frequent access difficulties to medical records, extremely frustrating for staff and patients.
Conditions listed that you've never being diagnosed with, or no evidence of the conditions you have been diagnosed with.
Frequent problems with knowing the drugs you are on. Potentially dangerous for drug interactions.
I've had an exasperated pharmacist visit my bedside, asking please can you clarify the medications you are on. He said he was receiving conflicting information. I told him, despite a raging temperature, and being prepped for emergency surgery. He was very happy to have spoken to me.
I have read letters sent following consultant appt. And honestly I've wondered who he had been talking to as it was farcically inaccurate.
I and others I know who have visited A &E have noted from the discharge letter sent to GP had listed a number of medications that I had never even heard of, let alone take.
This must be happening to many more patients. Dangerous in my opinion. And very frustrating for staff.

You are absolutely spot on! It really does need updating.

Cossy

Meandrogrog

For both you and M0nica, the failings of the NHS are unacceptable and unforgivable.

I’m pleased that you both could afford private care. It isqueue jumping, and I’ve been “guilty”of that myself. I had two operations privately, purely due to time constraints and work and family commitments. Both my husband and I had company health insurance.

I have no issue with people paying for private healthcare or private education, it’s your money and your choice.

My main objection is that the same level of care and the same level of education should be available to all, paying or not.

I would also point out that many of the same consultants and surgeons work in the private sector and the NHS, as do many nurses, who are often agency staff.

In reality, often what you’re paying for is not better quality care, but quicker care and much nicer and more comfortable surroundings, private rooms and bathrooms and hotel type food.

The financial cost of providing this standard of surroundings on the NHS would be absolutely eye watering.

Yes, I knew I was not paying for better quality surgery. I agree absolutely that the NHS should offer this same service given how much we all pay in taxes.

I know the same consultants work in both NHS and private sector, I worked in the NHS for many years. 😉

I agree Cossy an enormous financial investment.
But cost saving long term. And potentially life saving too.
It is currently not fit for purpose.

Plevey08

I believe the first thing any government needs to do re the NHS, is invest in their IT system.
It borders on the inadequate, at best, and potentially dangerous.
I and many others I know have experienced concerning incidents as in-patients and/or out-patients.
Frequent access difficulties to medical records, extremely frustrating for staff and patients.
Conditions listed that you've never being diagnosed with, or no evidence of the conditions you have been diagnosed with.
Frequent problems with knowing the drugs you are on. Potentially dangerous for drug interactions.
I've had an exasperated pharmacist visit my bedside, asking please can you clarify the medications you are on. He said he was receiving conflicting information. I told him, despite a raging temperature, and being prepped for emergency surgery. He was very happy to have spoken to me.
I have read letters sent following consultant appt. And honestly I've wondered who he had been talking to as it was farcically inaccurate.
I and others I know who have visited A &E have noted from the discharge letter sent to GP had listed a number of medications that I had never even heard of, let alone take.
This must be happening to many more patients. Dangerous in my opinion. And very frustrating for staff.

I completely agree that IT needs upgrading and “joining up”.

The financial cost of this would be enormous, as would staffing both IT and clinical staff properly.

I would also point out that very few private hospitals can cope with emergency surgery and don’t have A&E departments.

My husband by-passed A&E thankfully when he had his heart attack at home.

I spoke to 111 who called the appropriate Paramedics with an ambulance. His heart trace was sent online directly to the local Cardio-Thoracic Unit, (not our local hospital), the consultant was waiting for him in the unit , he didn’t need to go via A&E at all.

Nevertheless, from 111 to Cardiac Consultant and all in between were all NHS staff.

I am quite surprised that Farage would want to introduce the French system which is essentially socialist. For most things the state pays 70% and if you can afford it you pay a top-up "mutuelle" insurance which covers the rest. If you can't afford it the state pays 100%. Serious and chronic illnesses are funded at 100% for everyone. Employers and employees pay significant contributions towards the equivalent of National Insurance. Everyone carries a Carte Vitale health card and the link between state and top-up is electronic.

I believe the first thing any government needs to do re the NHS, is invest in their IT system.
It borders on the inadequate, at best, and potentially dangerous.
I and many others I know have experienced concerning incidents as in-patients and/or out-patients.
Frequent access difficulties to medical records, extremely frustrating for staff and patients.
Conditions listed that you've never being diagnosed with, or no evidence of the conditions you have been diagnosed with.
Frequent problems with knowing the drugs you are on. Potentially dangerous for drug interactions.
I've had an exasperated pharmacist visit my bedside, asking please can you clarify the medications you are on. He said he was receiving conflicting information. I told him, despite a raging temperature, and being prepped for emergency surgery. He was very happy to have spoken to me.
I have read letters sent following consultant appt. And honestly I've wondered who he had been talking to as it was farcically inaccurate.
I and others I know who have visited A &E have noted from the discharge letter sent to GP had listed a number of medications that I had never even heard of, let alone take.
This must be happening to many more patients. Dangerous in my opinion. And very frustrating for staff.

Meandrogrog

For both you and M0nica, the failings of the NHS are unacceptable and unforgivable.

I’m pleased that you both could afford private care. It isqueue jumping, and I’ve been “guilty”of that myself. I had two operations privately, purely due to time constraints and work and family commitments. Both my husband and I had company health insurance.

I have no issue with people paying for private healthcare or private education, it’s your money and your choice.

My main objection is that the same level of care and the same level of education should be available to all, paying or not.

I would also point out that many of the same consultants and surgeons work in the private sector and the NHS, as do many nurses, who are often agency staff.

In reality, often what you’re paying for is not better quality care, but quicker care and much nicer and more comfortable surroundings, private rooms and bathrooms and hotel type food.

The financial cost of providing this standard of surroundings on the NHS would be absolutely eye watering.

MaizieD

Graphite

That’s what I wanted to say upthread in the circular discussion about the notion of wealth “creation” - that’s it’s the same amount of money being transferred from one body to another. An understanding of double-entry bookkeeping helps!

Do you think we'd be able to convince people of the importance of the 'deficit' that so many worry about? That without the state running a deficit there would be no 'spare' money for people to spend or save?

I think it has to be accepted that economics, our economy, isn't really necessarily easy to grasp.

I struggled, and I regard myself as relatively intelligent - though, sometimes, 'points' fly right over my head.

That's why the popular appeal of kitchen-economics is so powerful and why it's used by those with an agenda.

To go from "you can't spend money you don't have" - which everyone understands to the concept of MMT - is a bloody great leap... and time consuming.

But, I've often thought that - if overall, the electorate understood how the economy actually works... there'd be flippin' revolution..

M0nica

Do not over rate the NHS. Both DD and I have had to go privately after serious misdiagnosis by the NHS, that in DD's case put her on the critical care list . 'critical' means she was 'life threateningly' ill.

A&E failed to diagnose that DH had heart failure. Our GP recognised the danger, when she sent us to A&E as an emergency. First the hospital 'lost him' on the system for 3 hours, then they failed to diagnose the classic symptoms of the condition and just sent him home with a shrug of their shoulders. It was paramedics who picked up the problem at the next occasion and delivered him to cardiac not A&E. That saved his life.

As far as I am concerned it is the paramedics that are the only good and reliable sector of the NHS.

Yes my so-called glossy experience was due to needing urgent major surgery when I was lost to the NHS system and could not afford to wait any longer.

To the poster who called it queue jumping, I hope you are never in the situation I found myself in.

We should all have choice anyway, we do not live in a communist state, it sounds so grudging and bitter.

Graphite

That’s what I wanted to say upthread in the circular discussion about the notion of wealth “creation” - that’s it’s the same amount of money being transferred from one body to another. An understanding of double-entry bookkeeping helps!

Do you think we'd be able to convince people of the importance of the 'deficit' that so many worry about? That without the state running a deficit there would be no 'spare' money for people to spend or save?

That’s what I wanted to say upthread in the circular discussion about the notion of wealth “creation” - that’s it’s the same amount of money being transferred from one body to another. An understanding of double-entry bookkeeping helps!

I'm glad you could make head or tail of it, Dickens I was a bit worried that it didn't make sense.

But once it gets into the economy money is entirely logical, it can't multiply itself, it follows the accounting rules, for every credit there must be a debit.

Do not over rate the NHS. Both DD and I have had to go privately after serious misdiagnosis by the NHS, that in DD's case put her on the critical care list . 'critical' means she was 'life threateningly' ill.

A&E failed to diagnose that DH had heart failure. Our GP recognised the danger, when she sent us to A&E as an emergency. First the hospital 'lost him' on the system for 3 hours, then they failed to diagnose the classic symptoms of the condition and just sent him home with a shrug of their shoulders. It was paramedics who picked up the problem at the next occasion and delivered him to cardiac not A&E. That saved his life.

As far as I am concerned it is the paramedics that are the only good and reliable sector of the NHS.