Women are a minority view so should be disregarded

The attention is always centred around transwomen, transmen barely get a mention. If transwomen belong in single sex women's facilities then equally transmen belong in single sex male facilities. What could possibly go wrong? Well this for a start:
www.thetimes.com/article/84d12e11-8b67-4702-b04a-a132c1112e2d?shareToken=5c0725ed827db18bde32016f3c06f3de

There will be arguments made that the transman should be housed with other females or at least separately, but that exactly shows that it is females no matter how they identify who need protections from males however they identify.

twaddle

ViceVersa, The point of my question is that I genuinely don't know how people can always tell if another person is male or female/has a penis or not.

Well the first high profile transwoman, April Ashley certainly looked like a woman, but those were the days, when possibly transwomen did access women's spaces, in a non confrontational way under the radar, going quietly went about their lives not impacting on the female population. I'm sure that type of transwoman must be dismayed as to what has emerged over the past 20 years or so. Everything changed when the matter became highly elevated and political. There are transwomen who do like look women just as there are those who look like what they are, a man in a dress and lipstick and those that don't have the nous to back off in confrontational situations. Susie Eddie, I'm never quite sure what they are transvestite or transwoman, they describe their persona as that of a lesbian, but sometimes they present as a man. Nevertheless they would be one such a person who exemplifies the difficulties of an obvious man accessing women's toilets when they got into a spat with schoolgirls who questioned whether he should be in the women's toilets, perceiving him as a he. As the adult in the room, they should have risen above getting into a shouting match and possibly understood the disquiet of teenagers and beat a retreat. Other scenarios where women have questioned the rights of very outwardly male presenting transwomen have at times been on the receiving end of violence. Similarly, threats to high profile women who advocate single sex spaces not only to them but to their children too. These are some of the situations that have flown out of the Pandora's Box of trans rights versus women's rights.

Yes I imagine many of us would like to go back to the days of the unobtrusive April Ashley before the matter tipped into confrontation and violence with women being on the receiving end.

Witzend

I seem to recall a good many prominent politicians making similar comments a few years ago, presumably because it was a ‘fashionable’ stance to take.

Plus of course so many people, and not just men, and including plenty of otherwise highly educated ones, are clueless about the basic facts of biology.

It wasn't just fashionable, it was all but impossible to say anything else. I honestly don't think any of them are less clued up about human biology than the average toddler - it was the stranglehold of Stonewall that silenced so many.

twaddle

ViceVersa, The point of my question is that I genuinely don't know how people can always tell if another person is male or female/has a penis or not.

Maybe we can't always tell, but I would guess at 90+% of the time we can. Things like the shape of the shoulders and hips can't be altered, however much 'styling' someone has done.

Anyway, as others have said, that's not the point. We can't always tell if someone is a burglar, or a knitter, or a lay preacher. That doesn't mean they aren't those things, does it?

twaddle

ViceVersa, The point of my question is that I genuinely don't know how people can always tell if another person is male or female/has a penis or not.

Oh, I think most women can generally clock whether someone is biologically male or female.

Anyway, that's not the point. As I said, the minute you allow a biological male into a single sex space for women, it is not longer a single sex space. Do you want your daughter or granddaughter sharing a toilet or changing room with a man? It doesn't matter whether he is there with ill intentions or not. If I offered you a box of chocolates, but told you one was poisoned, would you still take one?

Twaddle (Google it 🤣🤣🤣)
As a matter of interest, how to people know that somebody is trans?
You evidently do, as you have identified people you know as trans.

Most TW dress, make up, etc. as the way they think women should appear. Yet another sign of misogyny.

Today 11:37 ViceVersa

Anyway, that's not the point. As I said, the minute you allow a biological male into a single sex space for women, it is not longer a single sex space. Do you want your daughter or granddaughter sharing a toilet or changing room with a man? It doesn't matter whether he is there with ill intentions or not. If I offered you a box of chocolates, but told you one was poisoned, would you still take one?

Superb post, ViceVersa

Most women can spot a male on sight no matter what they are wearing or how much make up.

twaddle

ViceVersa, The point of my question is that I genuinely don't know how people can always tell if another person is male or female/has a penis or not.

You can if they sexually attack you in a place you thought was female only.

Aveline

Most women can spot a male on sight no matter what they are wearing or how much make up.

Yes,it’s usually the how they move, hands, feet, neck (Adam’s apple) and of course their voice

Aveline
Most women can spot a male on sight no matter what they are wearing or how much make up.

GrannyGravy13
Yes, it’s usually the how they move, hands, feet, neck (Adam’s apple) and of course their voice.

Especially since they’re usually wearing the male idea of what women should wear.

But do avoid the mention of voice.
You may be inundated with posters who have female friends who are tall, well built, muscular, and have deep voices.
They too may suffer because of the behaviour of some TW.
If only the ill-intentioned TW would wear a badge, or even just stay out!

GrannyGravy13

Aveline

Most women can spot a male on sight no matter what they are wearing or how much make up.

Yes,it’s usually the how they move, hands, feet, neck (Adam’s apple) and of course their voice

I usually look at their wrists which are bigger and heavier than women's wrists.

GrannyGravy13

Aveline

Most women can spot a male on sight no matter what they are wearing or how much make up.

Yes,it’s usually the how they move, hands, feet, neck (Adam’s apple) and of course their voice

For posters who say they’ve never met a man in the women’s toilets
Recently I used the women’s toilets at our local hospital. I walked in, found myself face to face with a man. Sorry, I said, I thought this was the women’s. I turned to leave, no he said, this is the ladies and I’m a woman, he was clearly male, making no effort to appear female, smirking at me, I used one of three cubicles, he then began a discussion with his friend, a male voice from the cubicle next to mine.
I didn’t wash my hands. I left swiftly

Gosh I dread that happening Iam64. I think I'd walk out and wait for him to leave.

Ironically I’d been to women’s health, bathroom need often follows. I was shocked, uneasy especially after the two started chatting when I’d gone into a cubicle. I considered complaining, but who to? They didn’t harm or outwardly threaten me but I felt very vulnerable and angry

Iam64
Your experience exactly demonstrates the problem.
Males simply believe they have the right to do what they want, to the detriment of females.
Honest males, whether TW or not would be campaigning for unisex toilets, some of which are beginning to appear.
Sadly not because the TW want them but because finally, some people, somewhere are acknowledging the ludicrousness of saying
Lying is wrong, unless it’s a TW lying about his sex. Then using that lie to deny women the right to male free spaces.
or
Cheating is wrong, unless you’re a TW using the lie to cheat women out of awards they deserve.

I suspect it could be dangerous for a transwoman to use a male facility. Given the level of homophobia many gay men still meet from other men. I would think the hostility to transmen from men is probably higher and a transwoman in a male toilet could be at risk.

Iam64's story illustrates the dangers that face women when transwomen can use female facilities. How can you know that a man in a woman's facility is truly a transwoman or just a man saying it because of the power it gives him and makes women fearful in places where they should feel safe.

M0nica
I agree it may be unsafe for TM, in male toilets, but I can’t find any evidence that they feel under threat in the same way that women do from TW.

Is that because men are unobservant or simply that women are more likely to be attacked by men than the other way round?

Actually, if TM feel at risk from men, that’s another example of women feeling at risk when faced with men in places where they shouldn’t be.
It implies the threat is once again from men.

That’s why trans should have been fighting for unisex toilets all this time.
Think of all the good people like Eddie Izzard could have done by campaigning for unisex spaces, instead of flaunting his demand for entrance to female spaces.

twaddle

Even if the person has fully transitioned and no longer has a penis?

It's actually an issue which affects a very small number of people (Burnham was right), so why can't some kind of solution be found by sensible discussion which respects the rights of all people?

So can you come up with one then?
One that respects the rights of all people?

A solution that isn’t automatically arranged to suit men in dresses at the expense of women’s rights?

A solution that doesn't compel those who can tell the difference, to use pronouns they know are incorrect without being called transphobic?

A solution that allows TW to compete without stealing medals from women.

One example of how it’s difficult is the reluctance of TW to compete in open competitions rather than female competitions.

If it was that easy, I’m sure it would have been done by now.

NB Re the removal of body parts or construction of prosthetics meaning they’ve changed sex?
It simply isn’t true and previous experience on GN tells me that would bring accusations of asking people to show their genitals.

Finally new guidance has been issued today- so what Burnham or anyone else said about toilets is historical and has now been clarified 22 May 2026 :

"Single-sex toilets and changing rooms in England, Wales and Scotland must exclude transgender men and women, according to a new code of practice from the equalities watchdog.

But the long-awaited guidance also says that businesses and service providers have to offer practical alternatives such as gender-neutral toilets for people who do not wish to use services for their biological sex.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) document sets out how public bodies, businesses and other service providers should respond in practical terms to April 2025’s landmark supreme court ruling that sex in the Equality Act refers only to biological sex."

Now that has been cleared up.

I wonder whether some posters concerns are soley related to Burnham or extended to include Kenyon for his known, more egregious racist and misogynistic comments.

ViceVersa

Yet another man who thinks he should tell women how they should feel...

Indeed. I’m a woman and can honestly say I’ve never been troubled by a TW in a single sex space. It’s not an issue that’s on my radar really because it just doesn’t concern me.
I can’t possibly speak for other women, though.
That a man thinks he can would be laughable were it not a serious matter.

I love the way people just go oh well that's cleared up. As if it wasn't due to brave women taking legal action, being called bigots and hateful, losing work, etc etc whilst others sat by and nodded at the misogyny of this ideology. Lots of women paid a considerable price to be where we are today, I am very grateful to them.

Calling the protection of single sex spaces a "small minority view" is dismissive. Polling consistently shows the majority of women want female only spaces protected. That is not a minority view.

Galaxy

I love the way people just go oh well that's cleared up. As if it wasn't due to brave women taking legal action, being called bigots and hateful, losing work, etc etc whilst others sat by and nodded at the misogyny of this ideology. Lots of women paid a considerable price to be where we are today, I am very grateful to them.

What is still to be "cleared up" in light of the new guidance?

The guidance sets out that women's single sex toilet spaces are now protected and transgender men and women must not be excluded either and toilet facilities made available for them also. Thus the rights of all are protected in respect of toilets which was the OP topic.