Weimar, Life on the edge of catastophe

Oreo

foxie48

Oreo You are conflating support for Palestinians and criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism. It is not the same. And no, I didn't say anything of the kind, please go back and read what I wrote properly instead of putting your own spin on it.

I read it loud and clear thanks the first time.You concluded that there was nothing wrong in chanting it.

"What does "global intifada" actually mean? Intifada means opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory and adding global to it is basically asking the rest of the world to support the Palestinians in their struggle against oppression by Israel. It is not inherently anti semitic because it is the country Israel not Jewish people that is doing the oppression. I have absolutely no issue with supporting the intifada, what Israel has done in Gaza and the West Bank surely cannot be acceptable to any right minded people."

This is what I wrote Oreo

twaddle

Oreo

foxie48
The other day you seemed very keen on explaining to us all how chanting ‘globalise the intifada’ was quite alright, even tho the government and police view it as wrong and arrest anyone who’s chanting or carrying a placard ( at least in theory as very few seem to be arrested.) Why do they view it that way and you do not?
The reason they view it as wrong is that it not only inflames the situation but acts as a catalyst for insults and attacks on Jews.
You know, the Jews who live here.
The Muslim population of the UK is now very large and the Jewish population is small. It doesn’t take much for the blame on any ills is blamed on us.

Who's blaming ills on you? Frankly, that seems a tad paranoid.

Yes, the notional Muslim population is larger than the Jewish population, but there's no need to see them all as "enemies". people don't spend their lives engaging in tribal warfare.

There are good and bad Muslims and Jews everywhere - just as there are good and bad people of any or no faith - and a heck of a lot of people who are a mix of bad and good and are called humans.

A tad paranoid…..hmmm perhaps you have missed the attacks on Jews.

foxie48

Oreo You are conflating support for Palestinians and criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism. It is not the same. And no, I didn't say anything of the kind, please go back and read what I wrote properly instead of putting your own spin on it.

I read it loud and clear thanks the first time.You concluded that there was nothing wrong in chanting it.

twaddle

Whitewavemark2

AfD are getting in on a tide of hate towards asylum seekers, or indeed immigrants.

They have a policy - rather like Reform if mass deportation, and in their case even German citizens who are Muslim.

It is shocking.

The dividing line in German politics is interesting. Generally, it runs along the line which used to be the border between West and East Germany.

There are a number of reasons for that.

Firstly, East Germany didn't experience the massive de-Nazification project of the West, which was successful in changing the mindset of West Germans.

Secondly, re-unification was a double-edged sword for East Germany. Yes, they had more freedom, but East Germans lost a lot which they had taken for granted. For example, guaranteed employment, free childcare and cheap housing. After re-unification, East German public servants had worse pay and conditions than West Germans. Some East German businesses and factories were closed down because they hadn't been modernised for years and were deemed unprofitable.

East Germans resented the "Wessies" and still feel they are treated as second class citizens. There is a population drift away from the more deprived areas in the East and this is where many immigrants have ended up. Naturally, there is suspicion and scapegoating.

That is so interesting. Just like the old mining areas in the U.K. in many respects, where reform attracts the most votes.

I think that there has definitely been recognition of “the left behind” but what is lacking are the real policies that will make a difference.

Meanwhile we have politicians who are more than willing to exploit the folk living in these areas of relative deprivation for their own ends, and doing so successfully. I have yet to see policies that will made a real difference to those people.

Oreo You are conflating support for Palestinians and criticism of the Israeli government with anti semitism. It is not the same. And no, I didn't say anything of the kind, please go back and read what I wrote properly instead of putting your own spin on it.

Oreo

foxie48
The other day you seemed very keen on explaining to us all how chanting ‘globalise the intifada’ was quite alright, even tho the government and police view it as wrong and arrest anyone who’s chanting or carrying a placard ( at least in theory as very few seem to be arrested.) Why do they view it that way and you do not?
The reason they view it as wrong is that it not only inflames the situation but acts as a catalyst for insults and attacks on Jews.
You know, the Jews who live here.
The Muslim population of the UK is now very large and the Jewish population is small. It doesn’t take much for the blame on any ills is blamed on us.

Who's blaming ills on you? Frankly, that seems a tad paranoid.

Yes, the notional Muslim population is larger than the Jewish population, but there's no need to see them all as "enemies". people don't spend their lives engaging in tribal warfare.

There are good and bad Muslims and Jews everywhere - just as there are good and bad people of any or no faith - and a heck of a lot of people who are a mix of bad and good and are called humans.

Whitewavemark2

AfD are getting in on a tide of hate towards asylum seekers, or indeed immigrants.

They have a policy - rather like Reform if mass deportation, and in their case even German citizens who are Muslim.

It is shocking.

The dividing line in German politics is interesting. Generally, it runs along the line which used to be the border between West and East Germany.

There are a number of reasons for that.

Firstly, East Germany didn't experience the massive de-Nazification project of the West, which was successful in changing the mindset of West Germans.

Secondly, re-unification was a double-edged sword for East Germany. Yes, they had more freedom, but East Germans lost a lot which they had taken for granted. For example, guaranteed employment, free childcare and cheap housing. After re-unification, East German public servants had worse pay and conditions than West Germans. Some East German businesses and factories were closed down because they hadn't been modernised for years and were deemed unprofitable.

East Germans resented the "Wessies" and still feel they are treated as second class citizens. There is a population drift away from the more deprived areas in the East and this is where many immigrants have ended up. Naturally, there is suspicion and scapegoating.

foxie48
The other day you seemed very keen on explaining to us all how chanting ‘globalise the intifada’ was quite alright, even tho the government and police view it as wrong and arrest anyone who’s chanting or carrying a placard ( at least in theory as very few seem to be arrested.) Why do they view it that way and you do not?
The reason they view it as wrong is that it not only inflames the situation but acts as a catalyst for insults and attacks on Jews.
You know, the Jews who live here.
The Muslim population of the UK is now very large and the Jewish population is small. It doesn’t take much for the blame on any ills is blamed on us.

AfD are getting in on a tide of hate towards asylum seekers, or indeed immigrants.

They have a policy - rather like Reform if mass deportation, and in their case even German citizens who are Muslim.

It is shocking.

What I find disturbing is there are some who can't or won't see that hatred of any minority group in society is all the same precurser to Fascism. Basically find a group in your society that you can scapegoat and ensure the focus is on blaming and marginalising that group whilst you get on with using the anger and division that you have created to gain power.

This is why I asked Galaxy to explain her comment as I genuinely don't understand why supporting Palestine's right to exist is the same as antisemitism, Islamophobia, or any other form of racism or "othering" but she hasn't replied.

This dogma has never gone away, though. The AfD are very likely to win a majority next time around in their area, and that particular government seat comes with responsibility of the police.

Very worrying indeed, as the alarm bells are getting louder but few seem to be listening and indeed there are deniers as can be seen on this thread.

Before the thread goes off at a tangent, maybe it would be better to stick to the topic and understand the processes which happened in 1930s Germany, then reflect on the similarities (and differences) with what is happening now.

Reform has been mentioned because it sows seeds of hate and division, which is what underpinned the horrors of 1930s Germany. People seem to forget that this isn't just a Muslim versus Jew conflict. Some of the perpetuators of anti-semitism are white Europeans. Hatred of Muslims, Jews (and others) goes hand-in-hand for some people.

Galaxy you still haven't explained your comment at 16.23:25

Reform was mentioned on here at 19.17.

Who suggested it was Reform?

Nobody's talking about the people who yell "fascist".

Maybe you should listen to the readings.

Do you think it is a reform that has led to Jewish people being killed in the streets. I dont.
Those who supported the pro
palestine marches were actually some highly influential people in politics, and media.
In addition people aren't listening when you shout fascist because people have been called fascist for any vaguely right of centre stance ( and actually some centre left stances) so yeah I generally don't listen to those who shout fascist at the moment, I gave that up about a decade ago.

You're right - people don't care and that's the point. People didn't care in 1930s Germany. They weren't evil people. They were just ordinary people, who were happy to have work after some disastrous years. They were impressed by the radios which most of them had and the fact that they seemed to have a government which seemed strong and promised them change and better times. Even the Jews themselves didn't believe what was happening, so non-Jews believed it even less.If they did believe Jews were being discriminated against, they didn't care and, anyway, the brainwashing had already begun and they began to blame Jews for everything which had gone wrong in the country.

We can shout it from the rooftops, make podcasts about it, and mention it in conversations we make with people.
Will it make any difference?
I doubt it.
The sad reality is that most people don't care.
I will be keeping a very close eye on my newly elected Reform councillors though...

Galaxy

Yes I agree, many of us tried to point out the risks of the globalise the intifada marches but it was always excused.

There is absolutely no risk that the people behind those marches will be taking over the government, which is what happened in Germany.

Galaxy

Yes I agree, many of us tried to point out the risks of the globalise the intifada marches but it was always excused.

Can you explain this reasoning further, please?

Galaxy

Yes I agree, many of us tried to point out the risks of the globalise the intifada marches but it was always excused.

It still is being excused.

Yes I agree, many of us tried to point out the risks of the globalise the intifada marches but it was always excused.

MaizieD

People have been finding parallels for quite a while now. When pointed out here on Gnet they've been poohpoohed, Perhaps Womans Hour makes it more persuasive?

Which is why I'm suggesting people listen to Weimar, Life on the edge of catastrophe!

People have been finding parallels for quite a while now. When pointed out here on Gnet they've been poohpoohed, Perhaps Womans Hour makes it more persuasive?

I think what I am finding so chilling is that as long as some people felt the economy was improving they were willing to ignore the dreadful treatment of the Jews. Also, the changes were made so incrementally that they were just accepted even by people who basically didn't agree with Nazi politics. Scary indeed!