Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

Must not misgender or deadname transgender patients. but she just has to suck up the racism and insults to her religion? In addition to being a fully trained, experienced nurse who can clinically recognise that a cocktail and balls is always found on a male?

So basically, the kiddy fiddling, racist,misogynistic, paedophile possibly got a good telling off and maybe a few extra days eating porridge but the nurse, who could tell that the patient was a male because of his penis and balls, got a jolly good telling off, a final written warning and a referral to her governing body?

Like I said, remind me again what it is you want about respect and acceptance.

twaddle

Doodledog

twaddle

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

When they want to use female spaces and are male. When they want to win prizes or apply for roles meant for women. When they have jobs that allow them to touch women intimately (particularly if the woman has been told she is getting a female doctor or nurse). When they go into changing rooms where teenage girls are changing. Will that do for now?

Have any of those scenarios actually affected you?

I've already written that it would be possible to write equality legislation to make exceptions for very specific circumstances, such as competitive sport.

I honestly believe there's an awful lot of hot air about the whole issue.

I don't always see things in terms of whether they affect me or not - I am capable of seeing beyond self-interest.

As an older woman, who can still advocate for myself I am probably less likely to be affected than a younger woman, but yes, I have been affected, and no, I am not going to elaborate, as my experiences are irrelevant to the discussion. Sorry if you think that's hot air, but it's the way I feel, just as you feel as you do.

"Why should the desires of a small minority trump those of everyone else?"

Well, quite!!

In all the time I have been using my local leisure centre, I have never ever heard anyone complaining about the changing rooms (and I've never seen anybody flashing a willy either).

That includes some Muslim ladies, who wear cover-up swimming and gym wear, but don't seem the slightest bit bothered by changing in rooms for men and women.

twaddle

By the way, no, it doesn't "do". I think there are simple work arounds for all those scenarios.

I agree- workarounds are available for all such scenarios.

Casdon

Whitewavemark2

Or even those roll in horse drawn carts where women can plunge into the sea unseen by human eye.

Having been shopping for swimsuits this morning, that does have a certain appeal I must admit.

One of my male gt grandfathers got rich owning a fleet of bathing machines on the North East coast.

People often say that lockable unisex facilities should 'be provided', despite the fact that many buildings are not set up for that, and re plumbing would be prohibitively expensive even if it were possible. And not all women want them. Why should the desires of a small minority trump those of everyone else?

Also, having separate areas for men and women means that a man lurking in the women's areas would stand out in a way that a man dressed as a woman would not. In dingy pub light, when there are crowds of people who have been drinking it is not always going to be possible to spot a transwoman (or someone pretending to be one) getting into the Ladies for nefarious purposes. Many years ago, a friend of mine was sexually assaulted in a pub toilet, by a man who had filled her in there. Luckily a barman noticed he was in the wrong area and followed him in, preventing an even worse incident from taking place. These days, even if he'd noticed, he may have been afraid to take action in case he was accused of 'misgendering' the attacker.

By the way, no, it doesn't "do". I think there are simple work arounds for all those scenarios.

Whitewavemark2

Or even those roll in horse drawn carts where women can plunge into the sea unseen by human eye.

Having been shopping for swimsuits this morning, that does have a certain appeal I must admit.

Doodledog

twaddle

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

When they want to use female spaces and are male. When they want to win prizes or apply for roles meant for women. When they have jobs that allow them to touch women intimately (particularly if the woman has been told she is getting a female doctor or nurse). When they go into changing rooms where teenage girls are changing. Will that do for now?

Have any of those scenarios actually affected you?

I've already written that it would be possible to write equality legislation to make exceptions for very specific circumstances, such as competitive sport.

I honestly believe there's an awful lot of hot air about the whole issue.

Cardamom

^I do vote on anti-racism though, as people born with a certain skin colour cannot choose to be any other than they are.^

This raises an interesting question: in May 2024, a prisoner was brought to Epsom & St Helier hospital for treatment. He was serving a lengthy prison sentence for child sex offences and paedophilia and had frequently displayed violence towards both male and female prison staff. On the day that he presented at the hospital, he was attended to by an experienced black nurse called Jennifer Melle. Ms Melle hadn't been informed that the patient "identified as female" and so addressed him, very politely as "Mr". What followed was a violent tirade of abuse towards the nurse; he used foul racist language towards her, called her the N word several times and made derogatory references to the cross hanging on a chain around her neck and her religion. He faced no charges and was simply escorted back to prison. The nurse was suspended, given a final written warning and reported to the NMC for failing to use the "correct pronouns".

Remind me again.....what were you saying about respect?

The Melle case has many facets and you've missed out some.

There is no excuse for the patient's racist comments to Nurse Melle. The patient was under the bed watch of 2 prison guards and already serving a custodial sentence. I have no doubt the patient was chastised and may have lost privileges or reprimanded in some other way on return to the prison. The unacceptable comments and behaviour would be on record and potentially impact on any future parole applications. As you state the patient was already serving a lengthy prison custodial sentence.

Melle was in fact aware the patient was transgender but she did not acknowledge this in her patient care. She saw that the patients record detailed biological male genitalia and the patient was under the care of urology.

During a discussion regarding a catheter, Melle used male pronouns to the patient and referred to the patient as "MR". This resulted in the patient making racist remarks towards her.

Melle stated to the hospital management at the time she could not use female pronouns due to her christian faith. She went to a newspaper to tell her story and as a result of that Melle was suspended (a neutral act to carry out an investigation). Once the hospital investigated and found that Melle had not disclosed the patient's name, thus not breached patient confidentiality, she was reinstated.

An industrial tribunal hearing had been scheduled but before it took place Melle settled with the trust for an undisclosed sum To the press, she thanked the hospital trust for "giving her anther chance".

In light of the fact that she had breached the Nursing and Midwifery Code the trust was obligated to refer Melle to the Nursing and Midwifery Council- NMC. Nurses are held to a higher standard than the general population, ie patients interests come before personal interests and patients must always be treated with respect and must not misgender or deadname transgender patients. Thats is also the Trust hospital policy. The NMC has yet to complete its regulatory investigation and rule on Melle's case.

Or even those roll in horse drawn carts where women can plunge into the sea unseen by human eye.

twaddle

When does it actually make any difference to you whether a person is accepted as male or female, Doodledog?

When they want to use female spaces and are male. When they want to win prizes or apply for roles meant for women. When they have jobs that allow them to touch women intimately (particularly if the woman has been told she is getting a female doctor or nurse). When they go into changing rooms where teenage girls are changing. Will that do for now?

JaneJudge

twaddle

So is the problem with the "traditional" toilets because trans people want to use facilities of their chosen sex?

Is that really a problem for women because I don't think I have ever known a women's toilet which doesn't have separate cubicles and doors? I can see it could be an issue with communal changing rooms, where people need to strip down to their undies. To be honest, I would have thought the people most threatened would be straight males, in case there are any predatory gay males around.

which leads into transwomen not being the problem. The problem is men?

I actually don't think it is. Most men aren't a problem.

MissAdventure

I absolutely and most certainly would not happily strip down in front of anyone, let alone someone who is a male, and total stranger.

Neither would I. I honestly can't remember the last time I was required to do it. I didn't have a job which required a change of clothing. If an employer knows that changes of clothing will be needed, they should provide facilities with individual lockable cubicles. Of employees are really concerned, maybe emergency buttons could be installed.

Perhaps we can all demand women only changing rooms on all the beaches in the U.K. 😄😄

twaddle

So is the problem with the "traditional" toilets because trans people want to use facilities of their chosen sex?

Is that really a problem for women because I don't think I have ever known a women's toilet which doesn't have separate cubicles and doors? I can see it could be an issue with communal changing rooms, where people need to strip down to their undies. To be honest, I would have thought the people most threatened would be straight males, in case there are any predatory gay males around.

which leads into transwomen not being the problem. The problem is men?

In fact, intersex is the wrong word, I should not have used it.

I absolutely and most certainly would not happily strip down in front of anyone, let alone someone who is a male, and total stranger.

MissAdventure

Intersex is a whole different ballgame, if you'll pardon my pun.

That is true. Intersex people should not be used like this. It is most unfair.

Gender neutral changing rooms would mean that women would have to take their clothes off with men in the room, not all women are happy with that, and I do think that their feelings are just as important as those of the women that don't mind.

Intersex is a whole different ballgame, if you'll pardon my pun.

Babies are usually typically born with female or male genitalia but only around 98.2-98.3% are.

A small percentage, about 1.7%, are born "intersex" that is with atypical genitalia where external genitalia appear mixed or not clearly developed. This can cause a challenge as to which sex to register the birth. Later the person may undergo surgery to correct this. They may also wish to identify as the opposite sex to that originally registered at birth.

It is worth noting this 1.7% figure of interest sex births and the 0.54% figure of the population that identifies as transgender.

There are also birth variations- ie Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, AIS, where the baby is born with XY chromosomes but develop entirely female external genitalia. Female sex may be registered at birth, yet the chromosome make up

Census facts- According to the 2021 last Census, 262,000 people, that is 0.54% of the population aged 16 or over, identified as having a gender identity different from their sex registered at birth. The ONS considers this was an over estimation because of bias in the results, noting that some individuals with a lower proficiency of English may have mistakenly answered that they were trans as a result of misunderstanding of the question wording.

Of that 0.54% 0.10% identified as a trans woman, a very low proportion of the population.

It is not immutable fact that 100% of babies are born with typical male or female genitialia, though around 98.3% are.

We can as a society accommodate appropriate toilet and changing facilities for this small proportion of transgender people I would suggest.

Society needs to treat intersex and AIS born babies as they would treat any other human baby no matter what sex they were register at birth. As people's medical history is private and confidential, a proportion of those 1.7% of babies born intersex, and those born with AIS may now identify as transgender and not their registered birth sex.

So is the problem with the "traditional" toilets because trans people want to use facilities of their chosen sex?

Is that really a problem for women because I don't think I have ever known a women's toilet which doesn't have separate cubicles and doors? I can see it could be an issue with communal changing rooms, where people need to strip down to their undies. To be honest, I would have thought the people most threatened would be straight males, in case there are any predatory gay males around.

they are individual lockable toilets/changing rooms like you've described

there are traditional communal toilets too in the older buildings

Idealistically everywhere would have gender neutral toilets/changing. That would be one issue solved, at least

I do vote on anti-racism though, as people born with a certain skin colour cannot choose to be any other than they are.

This raises an interesting question: in May 2024, a prisoner was brought to Epsom & St Helier hospital for treatment. He was serving a lengthy prison sentence for child sex offences and paedophilia and had frequently displayed violence towards both male and female prison staff. On the day that he presented at the hospital, he was attended to by an experienced black nurse called Jennifer Melle. Ms Melle hadn't been informed that the patient "identified as female" and so addressed him, very politely as "Mr". What followed was a violent tirade of abuse towards the nurse; he used foul racist language towards her, called her the N word several times and made derogatory references to the cross hanging on a chain around her neck and her religion. He faced no charges and was simply escorted back to prison. The nurse was suspended, given a final written warning and reported to the NMC for failing to use the "correct pronouns".

Remind me again.....what were you saying about respect?