Where is the balance and how can we live respectfully with difference? Radical feminist (TERF) beliefs versus transgender beliefs.

Iam64

I walked into the four cubicle female toilets, straight into a man. Clearly male clothesline short trendy male hsir cut.
Sorry, I said I thought I’d walked into the women’s, You did he said, I’m a woman, strong deep male voice, and grin. He then began a discussion with the man in the only occupied toilet,
I did use the facilities but felt anxious, they left

I was at the hospitals Women’s Health section so feeling slightly vulnerable for understandable reasons
These two were men. Enjoying whatever game they were playing

Iam, how do you know they were not fully male and not trans at all but trying it on in a particularly nasty way?

I really love at my gym having a women's large changing room because of the natters we have. Gales of laughter about blokes as well as loads of other stuff. I wouldn't enjoy as much if it were a "for everyone" changing room with private cubicles.

Not at all.

Having said that, I have identified probably 3 trans women in there, who tend to use cubicles and generally come and go quietly. That's probably about the general population % of trans women? (there may be others who have transitioned so successfully I don't know)

So for me its all about how people treat each other

Having been recently (October) been sexually assaulted by a man, in what should have been a safe space:

I have to me sadly had to accept that the one trans women involved in trying to sort it all out could not understand my reaction as in but he is such a nice man etc etc and put her POV aggressively:

but then a couple of women said that too "it cant have been that bad" as he had them fooled:

And it was a man in our group who said that the man who assulted me was well out of order.

Still being resolved as our Safeguarding people were taken completely by surprise and didnt know what to do.

but its the mixed experiences that I describe about that makes me say, its not the label its the way people treat each other.

I do believe of course that biologically born males can never join in biologically born female sports and similar endeavours, and I also believer sotrnly there have to be safe spaces where only biologically born females can work and be helped - I think trans women are in danger of attack and need to be given safe spaces for them.

the real danger remains misogyny and male violence and bullying.

The actual trans issue wont make me change party,

but I would not vote for any party that ignored women's safety and the need for all the measures spelled out to protect women against assault and abuse, and reproductive rights of all kinds

Ah that's a shame Wheniwasyourage; you've missed the opportunity to vote for him/this/that/them/their/her

A transgender Indian immigrant has become the first person to be elected to Holyrood without a permanent visa to stay in the UK.
Q Manivannan, who identifies as non-binary, was elected as an MSP on the Edinburgh & Lothians East list for the pro-independence Scottish Greens.

This would give the anthropologist and poet a further three years to work and live in the UK, picking up the taxpayer-funded MSP salary of £77,711.
The self-described “queer Tamil immigrant” was only able to stand in the election after SNP ministers loosened the rules over who could be a Holyrood candidate.

Quite simply, I usually introduce myself along the lines “I’m Lemondrop, what would you like me to call/ refer to you?”

Rosie51

LemonJam I do hope you don't use the term 'Christian name' in your professional setting, surely 'forename' or 'given name' are the correct terminologies. No Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh Hindu, or indeed atheist has a Christian name.

Christian name, forename, given name - whatever terminology is appropriate for the person before me.

I didn't use my second vote in the Scottish election for the Green party (as I have done before) because they don't know what a woman is, so yes, it altered my voting intentions. Today I saw that there are two new Green MSPs who thought that the most important thing they had to say as newly-elected MSPs was that their pronouns were they/their. I don't care what their pronouns are, as the only ones I would be likely to use for them are you/your. Glad I made that decision about voting!

However, I am sad too, because I do agree with the basic Green ideas about the environment. What a shame.

Why should women have to come up with workarounds to accommodate trans-identifying men

Good question; why should they? I might be wrong but I cannot recall ever seeing an incidence of a biological female, who identifies as male, demanding that men make room for her in the male toilets, changing rooms or sports arena. But I hear repeated wah wah wah from biological males who fully expect women to accommodate them in our spaces. Mind you, having read some of the posts on this thread, and seeing how willingly some women roll over and acquiesce to male demands in the name of "be kind, what harm can it do", I can see why some men would think it acceptable. Thank God the younger women on Mumsnet have a backbone and are willing to fight for women's rights and safety.

Yes, there’s lots of it going on Iam. But the women are hysterical

I walked into the four cubicle female toilets, straight into a man. Clearly male clothesline short trendy male hsir cut.
Sorry, I said I thought I’d walked into the women’s, You did he said, I’m a woman, strong deep male voice, and grin. He then began a discussion with the man in the only occupied toilet,
I did use the facilities but felt anxious, they left

I was at the hospitals Women’s Health section so feeling slightly vulnerable for understandable reasons
These two were men. Enjoying whatever game they were playing

They shouldn’t and there is a high percentage of vulnerable women (and girls) who do not have a voice and therefore don’t have a choice.

Why should…

Who should women have to come up with workarounds to accommodate trans-identifying men? The current system women have, of separate facilities for males and females, works for them. If trans people want different facilities from their birth sex they should campaign for them, like women had to fight for their rights for hundreds of years.

BTW, people with DSD are not transgender, they just have a physical difference, rather like someone who is born without a limb - they’re still a human being, they’re not some other species.

I find myself in total agreement with Doodlebug's posts on the subject.

I am not "transphobic". If a guy wants to change his name from Fred to Sue, there is no law against it. If a woman wants to change from Annabel to George, who cares. Some names are not "gender specific" anyway. Ashley, for instance.
Natural born women are free to wear trousers these days, even those with the zip up the front. My mother would have disapproved. She did disaprove. Doesn't stop me wearing them. Far better fitting than the old "ladies" side zip version.
I wear a dress in hot weather because it is more comfortable. I have no problem if natural born men want to wear dresses. Why shouldn't they? People will soon get used to the idea, just like they got used to men with powdered wigs, tights and make-up, not to mention girls with skirts above the knee in the 1960s!

My first encounter with what is now called a transwoman was way back in the mid 1990s. It was at a training centre when I was learning IT before "returning to work" after raising children. Management had a meeting with the female students. It was explained that "Richard", previously a student, was returning as "Susan" (not the actual names). Susan would be dressing "as a woman". There were concerns as to how the male students would react, particularly in the privacy of the toilet area. We were asked if Susan might use the female toilets. We asked only one question, to which the answer was Yes. So we unanimously declared Susan to be an honorary woman for toilet usage purposes. That would not have been the case if Susan had not "fully transitioned".

As for pronouns, I really can't remember. I think we usually refered to Susan as neither he/him, she/her or they/their. I think we just refered to her as Susan. After all, as has been mentioned previously on here and (frequently by my old English teacher Mrs Saunders), SHE is the cat's mother!

Male, female, trans, whatever, Susan was a very pleasant person.

I'm even less interested in it now. Thanks

I knew it would get back to not all men as soon as I mentioned men

LemonJam I do hope you don't use the term 'Christian name' in your professional setting, surely 'forename' or 'given name' are the correct terminologies. No Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Sikh Hindu, or indeed atheist has a Christian name.

Plenty of factual information on record about Nurse Melle. Equally the NMC code of conduct and hospital policies available for all to read on line as is the Human Rights Act.

In due course the NMC ruling will be available to read and no doubt be reported in the media.

No.

Antisemitism doesn't affect me personally because I'm not Jewish but does impact my wider family, Islamophobia doesn't affect me personally because I'm not Muslim, racism against brown and black people doesn't affect me personally because I'm white, but does impact some of my family. Perhaps I shouldn't care about those either?

It is so galling to hear women saying they just don't care. The same women who were saying every woman should vote because women before us fought so hard for us to get the vote. They know what women are when they want to chastise us.
The 'intersex', vile inaccurate word, figures have absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues and incidentally cover any difference of sexual development such as women born without ovaries or a uterus. People born with a DSD (difference of sexual development) rarely have indistinct genitalia, and these days any doubt is cleared at birth by dna testing. DSDs are always specific to either males or females there is no crossover. The most common DSD which results in indistinct genitalia is 5ARD a condition only affecting males, Caster Semenya is a prime example. These males go through a normal male puberty powered by their internal testes and develop normal male strengths, muscle mass, bone density etc.

On the subject of deadnaming plenty of people have no problem refusing to use the name of the man who calls himself Tommy Robinson but refer to his given name of Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. I know he's a vile person, so should we apply the same criteria to transpeople and only use their preferred name if they're nice?

And just one tiny snippet some may be unaware of. A gender recognition certificate changes your legal sex and entitles you to the benefits and protections of that sex. Except in one very male area. An older sister who transitions to be a transman can still not inherit land or titles that pass through male primogeniture, her younger brother will inherit even if he has transitioned to be a transwoman. And they try to say it's not a mens rights movement.

And mocking women who want the privacy, dignity and safety of, for example, changing rooms is a weak but offensive stance. You don't get many sexual assaults on beaches packed with holidaymakers do you?

No, it's never gonna happen, so get over it!

Cardamom

Obviously Doodledog. I'm perplexed by those who say that, because they personally haven't been impacted by predatory males in mixed sexed spaces, that this is a non issue. I dare say there's some sort of sexual predator, somewhere or other, that makes a beeline for old ladies in states of undress but I'm unconvinced they're common; most of them prefer young, defenceless girls. Someone upthread mentioned that they've never had a problem with mixed sex changing rooms at their local swimming pool. Lucky them! We've had at least 3 incidents of males sliding a mobile phone under the changing room cubicles to film children and young girls undressed; one pervert was caught twice in a week.

The problem lies not specifically with transgender males; it lies with males. And unfortunately, males tend not to carry a sandwich board or a lanyard around their necks saying "I'M A SEXUAL PREDATOR, BEWARE", we have no way of knowing who the safe ones are and who are the dangerous ones are. It therefore makes perfect sense to keep ALL males out of female spaces, including those who think they can be women, until such time as women can be safe in all spaces, at all times. --never gonna happen--

No, I didn't write that it's a non-issue. I wrote that there were simple work arounds. Please don't lie.

Ilovecheese

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

It would appear that Nurse Melle admitted she couldn't use female gender pronouns as a result of her Christian beliefs. She claimed she was being discriminated against because of her Christian beliefs. She was suspended for going to the media, which is against the professional code.

Obviously Doodledog. I'm perplexed by those who say that, because they personally haven't been impacted by predatory males in mixed sexed spaces, that this is a non issue. I dare say there's some sort of sexual predator, somewhere or other, that makes a beeline for old ladies in states of undress but I'm unconvinced they're common; most of them prefer young, defenceless girls. Someone upthread mentioned that they've never had a problem with mixed sex changing rooms at their local swimming pool. Lucky them! We've had at least 3 incidents of males sliding a mobile phone under the changing room cubicles to film children and young girls undressed; one pervert was caught twice in a week.

The problem lies not specifically with transgender males; it lies with males. And unfortunately, males tend not to carry a sandwich board or a lanyard around their necks saying "I'M A SEXUAL PREDATOR, BEWARE", we have no way of knowing who the safe ones are and who are the dangerous ones are. It therefore makes perfect sense to keep ALL males out of female spaces, including those who think they can be women, until such time as women can be safe in all spaces, at all times. never gonna happen

Yes I agree Respect, dignity and acceptance should be 2 way. All are expected to behave when in hospital care- this patient was in breach.

Yes all registered nurses are subject to their professional code and hospital policies.

It's quite simple to ask a patient what they want to be called on approach. Most patients respond back with the Christina name they usually use. No need to use pronouns at all, particularly mis gender pronouns.

There are a few different versions of what happened with the nurse and the prisoner. I don't suppose anyone really knows the sequence of events by now.

This is an area where respect and acceptance is a one way street, Cardamom.