Mandelson failed security vetting. Starmer says he didn’t know

Primrose would you mind letting me know on which TV channel / programme you heard about Thornbury etc?

I really would like to observe this with my own eyes & ears.

Thanks!

It might be they are answers you don't like twaddle. The problem for her is the legacy of the tory government of which she was part, I caught her talking about defense funding the other day and I agreed with a lot of what she was saying but obviously defence funding for the majority of the last two decades was the responsibility of a tory government, so the current situation is mostly their responsibility.

What a lot of comments from people who seem unable to focus their eyes beyond the shores of this country and what happens within it!

Internal differences of view over "did he know/didn't he know" and fossilised opinions of the character of Prime Minister Starmer are small beer in the light of international conflicts and the wiles of the countries standing on the sidelines waiting to take advantage. We may be an island, but we are surrounded by sharks. RAF fighter jets were scrambled on Tuesday over fears a suspected long-range Russian bomber was nearing British airspace. Two Typhoons were deployed from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland and were accompanied by a Voyager refuelling plane from RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. A long-range Russian bomber was sniffing round the North Sea, probably checking out their best route past Britain toward the Atlantic and a free run to the US, but possibly testing UK defences. Please point out someone else in Westminster who is:-

a) Trusted by all Cabinet Ministers, MPs, and Civil Servants to talk and negotiate on behalf of the UK with the leaders and representatives of the US, EU country leaders, China, Russia, or any other Tom Dick or Harry.

b) Able to do this with a firm grasp of the legal principles, national and international, on which those talks and negotiations are based, and known to the heads of other countries to have that knowledge.

c) NOT looking for political advancement or party advantage. Those who most covet power are not necessarily those best suited to having it. They are in fact the last people who should be given it.

Nope sorry not going to change my morality because there are difficult times internationally, that kind of thinking is what gave mandelsson the position in the first place.

Elegran
The worrying thing is that you have to ask those questions, without having an answer, when there is so much concern about the current PM/ministers.

Luckygirl3

*Starmer has been useless.* In what way?
With Starmer unfit for office ..... In what way?

These blanket statements are simply tribal rankings.

Many gransnetters are not paid up Labour supporters but can stand back and see that we finally have someone at the helm who is able to hold his own internationally, stand up for UK interests and approach his role in a thoughtful way. He does not get everything right (who does?) but he is a breath of fresh air after the absence of gravitas and respect for democracy of what went before .... notably Johnson and Truss.

Absolutely. I am what is called a floating voter, I suppose. I for one am very glad KS is in place with the world as it is now.

Why not wait until Monday to hear what Olly Robbins has to say?
Clutching at straws otherwise?

ronib

Why not wait until Monday to hear what Olly Robbins has to say?
Clutching at straws otherwise?

Fair enough.

It is actually Tuesday ronib. Hopefully the position will be clear then.
committees.parliament.uk/publications/52666/documents/293112/default

Yes that’s right Casdon👍

Keir Starmer talks in parliament on Monday.

Oliver Robbins gives evidence to the Foreign Affairs committee on Tuesday.

Galaxy

It might be they are answers you don't like twaddle. The problem for her is the legacy of the tory government of which she was part, I caught her talking about defense funding the other day and I agreed with a lot of what she was saying but obviously defence funding for the majority of the last two decades was the responsibility of a tory government, so the current situation is mostly their responsibility.

No, she doesn't have answers. She attacks, sneers and snipes, but doesn't come up with solutions, even ones I don't like.

As for women's rights, I've seen where your interests are. They're not mine. Nobody is suggesting you should change your individual morality, but even in the field of "women's rights", there are far more important issues (IMO) - and I'm not going to change my morality either.

Well said, Elegran!

If KS was told of the security clearance failure- and knowingly mis lead parliament the truth will out next week.

What KS did know however was PM's history and background- so the level of curiosity, discussion and risk management calculations he undertook in HIS decision to appoint PM, notwithstanding Home Office security clearance is also key. I await his explanation of that.

I also wander, as KS claims he only found out on Tuesday evening about the HO security clearance decision, why he waited until the story was reported by the Guardian on Thursday to make public comment, including nothing at PMQs the following day. This is particularly in the context that KS was fully aware he had already stated on the record in an earlier PMQ that "all due process was followed". I would have expected Starmer, after making such a statement previously- to go away and double check that all due process was followed, or instruct others to do so to cover my back and uphold my reputation- after all politics is full of vipers. I wait his explanation on that.

But we've seen other PMs in similar vulnerable situations survive- depending on an interplay of various factors. It is not the best time for Starmer to go- but all will play out next week.

History tells us all that PM has gone down several times before over his political life. Further each time PM went down he made sure to take others with him. Starmer should have known that and included this risk and made sure it was mitigated in his appointment calculations.

I do think KS is a man of principle- unlike other PMs we have had in recent years. However he clearly is not the most politically savvy or cunning in order to protect himself in the waters in which Prime Minsters swim.

I agree with Elegran that the world's uncertainty and the interest of the UK within current turmoil far outweighs this absolute mess KS finds himself in/has to some degree contributed towards creating. He may be domestically on the ropes but the bigger picture also bears consideration for his party- ie will they support him or not?

Elegran

What a lot of comments from people who seem unable to focus their eyes beyond the shores of this country and what happens within it!

Internal differences of view over "did he know/didn't he know" and fossilised opinions of the character of Prime Minister Starmer are small beer in the light of international conflicts and the wiles of the countries standing on the sidelines waiting to take advantage. We may be an island, but we are surrounded by sharks. RAF fighter jets were scrambled on Tuesday over fears a suspected long-range Russian bomber was nearing British airspace. Two Typhoons were deployed from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland and were accompanied by a Voyager refuelling plane from RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. A long-range Russian bomber was sniffing round the North Sea, probably checking out their best route past Britain toward the Atlantic and a free run to the US, but possibly testing UK defences. Please point out someone else in Westminster who is:-

a) Trusted by all Cabinet Ministers, MPs, and Civil Servants to talk and negotiate on behalf of the UK with the leaders and representatives of the US, EU country leaders, China, Russia, or any other Tom Dick or Harry.

b) Able to do this with a firm grasp of the legal principles, national and international, on which those talks and negotiations are based, and known to the heads of other countries to have that knowledge.

c) NOT looking for political advancement or party advantage. Those who most covet power are not necessarily those best suited to having it. They are in fact the last people who should be given it.

Elegran well said.

I know I’ve been one of those contributing to the ‘who knew what / when’ discussion. I think this issue has particularly ‘hit a nerve’ with me because, as a supporter of KS, I want full transparency - from all sides.

However, as you quite rightly point out, in the great schemes of things this issue is very small beer.

Thanks

Lizziedrip 14.16.

I share your view. Transparency is important. Other parties are openly attacking and challenging KS as is their role and in their personal political interests.

In such circumstances the public deserve transparency as the lack of it and the vacuum created further contributes to speculation, conspiracy theories, lowers the level of public trust in government etc. It also emboldens and strengthens those seeking to get KS to resign to further their personal and party political interest.

Keeping it all in perspective, once all is transparent next week is the next hurdle.

I really don’t care. Starmer is the least awful of the politicians I would want running the country.

Keeping it all in perspective, once all is transparent next week is the next hurdle

Ah yes, LemonJam that will indeed be a hurdle.

Some members of the media are already frothing at the mouth🙈

I don't need you to be interested in women's rights twaddle, when I was referring to morality, I meant the morality of appointing Mandelsson in the first place. As I say Starmer doesn't reflect standards that I agree with anymore. My decision not to support Starmer any longer actually wasnt anything to do with the gender issue, I gritted my teeth through that, it was on another issue, the appointment of mandelsson helped to confirm my doubts.

So many people in the Labour party have been involved in dodgy or unprofessional dealings since they came to power just a short time ago

Just to be clear I meant I fear this will add to the general cynisism and discontent with politicans. Therefore opening the door for chancers like Farage.

I hope I'm wrong.

LaCrepescule

I really don’t care. Starmer is the least awful of the politicians I would want running the country.

Agree.

But then again we have Trump supporters on this site.

Maremia

One single astute remark, made after months of failure, is not a recognised qualification for becoming Leader.

I wasn’t suggesting that it was. But I do think ‘blinded by his own righteousness’ is spot on for KS.

Lemonjam, Lizziedrip and others, surely the last thing we can expect is absolute clarity😁. The whole thing was a fudge ànd it isn’t in the nature of fudge to be clear. Or to put it another way, what is clear is that everyone is swimming in treacle.

Honesty is the best we can hope for and I’ve said upthread that I think KS to be honest ànd unlikely to have knowingly lied to parliament.

He doesn’t come out of this well but nor does anyone else. He’s succeeding on the world stage and the world is a dangerous place. It’s in all of our interests to let him get on with what he’s good at.

Lizziedrip 16.30: "Some members of the media are already frothing at the mouth🙈"

Indeed Lizziedrip - it sells newspapers- the majority of the main ones have right wing proprietors so reporting style and headlines evidently have right wing bias . I really do hope some level of national interest and perspective comes into play- but I'm not holding my breath 🥱

Newspapers will do what they always do- that's a given. What is more interesting/important is whether the LP will raise a leadership challenge if KS does not resign, whatever the enquiry outcome.

winterwhite: 15.21. "Lemonjam, Lizziedrip and others, surely the last thing we can expect is absolute clarity😁. The whole thing was a fudge ànd it isn’t in the nature of fudge to be clear. Or to put it another way, what is clear is that everyone is swimming in treacle.

Honesty is the best we can hope for and I’ve said upthread that I think KS to be honest ànd unlikely to have knowingly lied to parliament. He doesn’t come out of this well but nor does anyone else. He’s succeeding on the world stage and the world is a dangerous place. It’s in all of our interests to let him get on with what he’s good at".

We can and should expect more clarity next week, fingers crossed. I also agree I think it is unlikely KS knowingly lied to Parliament. I predominantly agree with your last comment also, mainly because change on the world stage if not what the UK needs right now and any other likely successor is not proven on the world stage either.