Southport killings inquiry verdict.

Mollygo

A step in the right direction from this horrific event will be that parents are held responsible for their children’s actions.

Hmm. Thats what I’m not sure about.
My father abused us all, my mum, myself and my brother, in the late 60s and early 70s.
My mum eventually summoned up the courage to leave him. My brother took over where my dad left off. He was equally violent to my mum and to me.
My mum was in no way responsible for the actions of my brother.

I can understand distress felt in a family, where professionals fobbed off their worries.
I can understand why they would give up looking for help, but did the parents report the knives to anyone, anyone at all?

If you read the report it is clear that the father in particular was aggressive to professionals and justified the possession of knives.

I don’t know enough about AR/parents to call for them to be prosecuted. I believe they share responsibility for his actions by facilitating weapons and unchecked internet and especially by lying to agencies.
In the US some parents are prosecuted when their children do school shootings. I don’t see America as a country whose criminal justice system I’d want us to follow,

My knowledge is limited to much less extreme MH matters, but extends to parents that I actually know in that situation. Not as extreme, but bad enough as their son was harming others.
In the end the parents consistently contacted the police. It broke them down having to do it.

I dont think its quite as straightforward as some will make out, although I repeat, of course in this case the parents should have notified everyone possible.

That was helpful Iam.

So that was a targeted attack on women and girls, in what way are the parents not guilty of incitement. Or is facilitating the purchase of weapons less than words on a page.

The age of 18 is the one by which a diagnosis of psychopathy can be made. Behavioural traits can be identified age 15 but some parents identify indications

Controlling, cold, manipulative adolescents are uncommon but good multi agency assessments are likely to identify them. They can be secured and should be. We are all aware that one of the child murderers of Jamie B responded positively to the care, boundaries, education in the secure establishment he was contained in. It seems he has led a decent life avoiding the criminal behaviour that led to his coaccused being recalled to prison.

Iam64

Oreo, I’ve not read all the conclusions reached by the Judge led inquiry. I heard his comments as measured and fully supported by the evidence. He criticised the parents. Your comment that they were let down by professionals isn’t in dispute. That does not imo absolve them of responsibility. They funded his internet, the weapons and ricin ingredients he had delivered to their home, they signed for knives delivered by Amazon.
They were dishonest and deceitful with people trying to help. I’m not in the send then to jail gang but their behaviour contributed to the death and life changing physical and emotional damage to children and adults

I had forgotten the brother.
Who tried to make things better.
How about his life? Putting his parents in prison?

No.

I just wondered, Iam, in your working life, encountered a teenager who is a psychopath and able to gaslight and create fear in their parents and "kid" those around including to a certain extent, professionals?

This is speculative of course and I'm most definitely not trying to let the parents or anyone else totally off the hook

I have never personally met a situation this extreme, but I do know parents whose sick children have got them wound round their fingers. Money, substantial lies about what has happened to them at the hands of others, so they have them living in a complex state of fear/denial/hiding and so on.

Their dishonest and deceitful behaviour over a long period contributed to the death and maiming of other people's children.
There is no excuse.

Oreo, I’ve not read all the conclusions reached by the Judge led inquiry. I heard his comments as measured and fully supported by the evidence. He criticised the parents. Your comment that they were let down by professionals isn’t in dispute. That does not imo absolve them of responsibility. They funded his internet, the weapons and ricin ingredients he had delivered to their home, they signed for knives delivered by Amazon.
They were dishonest and deceitful with people trying to help. I’m not in the send then to jail gang but their behaviour contributed to the death and life changing physical and emotional damage to children and adults

Also in many cultures anything seen as different, MH, neurodiverse and so on is seen as a great shame and is often hidden from the world at large.
Of course the chair of the inquiry has more facts than I do but living with this teenager would have been hell I bet.They were physically frightened by him.
Nothing can usually be done until someone commits a crime even if they beg to be sectioned.

Allira

Oreo

I’m uncomfortable with all this blaming of his parents.A difficult autistic teenager who frightened and bullied his family, I can just imagine what their life must have been like.
They felt let down by the authorities time and again.They very likely feared he would harm or kill somebody one day ( quite often it’s the parents themselves who are killed in these sort of cases) but nobody will act until the deed is done.

I’m uncomfortable with all this blaming of his parents

How did it get to the stage where a child could bully his parents to the extent that they accepted the deliveries of knives on his behalf? Some were ordered using false IDs.
Could they not have handed them in to the police? Did they even try?

I believe the Chair of the Inquiry, a retired judge, has been very thorough, in his conclusions he said that the parents “bear considerable blame for what occurred”.

He added: “If [his] parents had done what they morally ought to have done, [Rudakubana] would not have been at liberty to conduct the attack and it would not therefore have occurred.”

Not just the parents, of course, there was failure after failure, culminating in the psychiatrist who discharged him as being of no risk.

In some cultures a family's standing in their church community is paramount. The father knowingly kept his son's behaviour and the weapons he was accumulating quiet because he didn't want his son to be removed from the family thereby damaging their reputation. A previous GN has said the lawyer will name and shame if those who failed in the jobs they were paid to do are not held to account. I hope he does. This tragedy must become a catalyst for robust change going forward.

Oreo

I’m uncomfortable with all this blaming of his parents.A difficult autistic teenager who frightened and bullied his family, I can just imagine what their life must have been like.
They felt let down by the authorities time and again.They very likely feared he would harm or kill somebody one day ( quite often it’s the parents themselves who are killed in these sort of cases) but nobody will act until the deed is done.

I’m uncomfortable with all this blaming of his parents

How did it get to the stage where a child could bully his parents to the extent that they accepted the deliveries of knives on his behalf? Some were ordered using false IDs.
Could they not have handed them in to the police? Did they even try?

I believe the Chair of the Inquiry, a retired judge, has been very thorough, in his conclusions he said that the parents “bear considerable blame for what occurred”.

He added: “If [his] parents had done what they morally ought to have done, [Rudakubana] would not have been at liberty to conduct the attack and it would not therefore have occurred.”

Not just the parents, of course, there was failure after failure, culminating in the psychiatrist who discharged him as being of no risk.

Sago

MaizieD

GrannyGravy13

The ethnicity of criminals (whatever their crime) is becoming the Elephant in the Room

In the UK we are seeing more incidents where authorities/agencies are not responding to queries and/or suspicions for the fear of being labelled racist.

I'm very much afraid that disclosing the ethnicity of criminals will just provide another stick for racists to beat immigrants with.

Not disclosing the ethnicity of criminals in the name of social cohesion has done a lot of damage.

Am sure that I heard this has been changed and as of sometime this year data will be stored by police on ethnicity of criminals.

I’m uncomfortable with all this blaming of his parents.A difficult autistic teenager who frightened and bullied his family, I can just imagine what their life must have been like.
They felt let down by the authorities time and again.They very likely feared he would harm or kill somebody one day ( quite often it’s the parents themselves who are killed in these sort of cases) but nobody will act until the deed is done.

The families lawyer is saying he will name the key people from a range of agencies unless they face disciplinary procedures.

Wyllow3

Sadgrandma

I feel that his parents must bear the main brunt of responsibility for his crimes as they knew he was dangerous, In fact I believe they were frightened of him themselves so they should have reported him to the police. Failure to do so must make them equally culpable for the murder of these children. Therefore I believe they should be charged with aiding and abetting at least and sent to prison. This would send a message to other parents who are willing to cover up their children’s’ crimes.
If he had then been admitted to a psychiatric unit at an early stage he might have received the treatment that he needed and this terrible tragedy would not have happened.

I believe that the shame, everyone's knowledge of what they withheld, and the "mud will stick" -just imagine the rest of their lives:

Will go with them everywhere: punishment enough, warning enough, to others as is being publicised so widespread.

I thought I heard in a BBC News report that they have been given new identities but I could be wrong.

I feel sorry for his brother, because Dion warned that his brother was violent and he feared Axel would murder someone, possibly their father. He described him as a "sociopathic murderer".

So many warning signs ignored.

I hope this Public Inquiry will bring about big changes.

They are dangerous.

Sadgrandma

I feel that his parents must bear the main brunt of responsibility for his crimes as they knew he was dangerous, In fact I believe they were frightened of him themselves so they should have reported him to the police. Failure to do so must make them equally culpable for the murder of these children. Therefore I believe they should be charged with aiding and abetting at least and sent to prison. This would send a message to other parents who are willing to cover up their children’s’ crimes.
If he had then been admitted to a psychiatric unit at an early stage he might have received the treatment that he needed and this terrible tragedy would not have happened.

I believe that the shame, everyone's knowledge of what they withheld, and the "mud will stick" -just imagine the rest of their lives:

Will go with them everywhere: punishment enough, warning enough, to others as is being publicised so widespread.

The senior person has a duty to believe your concerns. I would never ever think I could just wave off, or worse still ignore and misrepresent, any worries or feelings of unease that a member of staff brought to me. Similarly I'd expect whoever I referred an issue on to, to have the same integrity and moral values, but clearly not all have.

I dont understand it? Doesn't everyone up and down the chain need to be working for the greater good?

Working with families who don’t have English as first language and whose cultures are very different than those of the host culture is a challenge.
I stress I’m neither excusing ARs parents, or the poor practice from various agencies.
Proactive practitioners like the head teacher who was accused of seeing the stereotypical black boy with a knife. No her trainings, professionalism, experience all came together to conclude this is a dangerous child.
Raising increasing concerns isn’t always appreciated. I speak as someone who spent months trying to get senior managers to accept genuine not exaggerated concerns

I feel that his parents must bear the main brunt of responsibility for his crimes as they knew he was dangerous, In fact I believe they were frightened of him themselves so they should have reported him to the police. Failure to do so must make them equally culpable for the murder of these children. Therefore I believe they should be charged with aiding and abetting at least and sent to prison. This would send a message to other parents who are willing to cover up their children’s’ crimes.
If he had then been admitted to a psychiatric unit at an early stage he might have received the treatment that he needed and this terrible tragedy would not have happened.

Petra, I posted on an earlier thread. My dad was seconded to the Met on a couple of occasions from a northern county force in the sixties and seventies. He always said the Met totally corruot

MartavTaurus

For me, I'm becoming totally confused, unclear and perplexed as to how incompetence and racism come head to head in so many of these inquiries. There's always some link.

We now have breaking news that eleven Met Police officers are being investigated for racism in their handling of the London prep school car crash that killed two little girls in the playground. Misconduct and racism combined.

How can we ensure that there's a level of accountability, or that lessons will be learned in such a climate?

how can we ensure that there’s a level of accountability, or tgat lessons will be learned in such a climate
I’m loath to be the bearer of bad news, but, it’s the MET = corruption.
I’m a south London girl born in 1946, it was ever thus. The present incumbent pass on their corruption to the younger ones.
The only thing that’s changed is that we are more aware of it now. But that to me makes it worse as it’s in our face and they know nothing is going to change.
The information given out that 2 of the officers questioned were, 1 is a commander and another a chief inspector.
That’s how rotten the MET is.