Europe - dare we hope?

MaizieD

What are these 'open EU borders' that you see as a problem, Oreo?

Quite.

Freedom of movement.

What’s wrong with that?

FranP

Luckygirl3

We need them more than they need us. Brexit has left us on the back foot.

Given we are paying far too much for the divorce - they need us. Really bad exit negotiations, really bad contract in the first place.
When we went in it was like minded, like valued countries, even though both Spain and Italy had their problems, but now the EU is full of gimme countries who cannot afford to be in. It would appear that Denmark and France are unhappy and reconsidering

I agree with you FranP Greece shouldn’t have been accepted into the EU either.

Too much movement came the UK’s way.

I voted to Remain as I couldn’t really decide at the time, but since then, having more time to think about it, I think Leave was the right course.Unfortunately the Covid Pandemic and then the cost of supporting Ukraine hasn’t given Brexit a fighting chance.It just needs time.

Oreo

I voted to Remain as I couldn’t really decide at the time, but since then, having more time to think about it, I think Leave was the right course.Unfortunately the Covid Pandemic and then the cost of supporting Ukraine hasn’t given Brexit a fighting chance.It just needs time.

It was already apparent that Brexit was an huge mistake when Covid reared its ugly head.

It was apparent, when Covid reared its ugly head, that there was no joined up thinking between any of the EU countries.

MartavTaurus

It was apparent, when Covid reared its ugly head, that there was no joined up thinking between any of the EU countries.

Not true.

"So even if we were still a member of the EU, the UK regulator would have been able to take this decision on its own because EU law already allows it. Incidentally, that legislation took effect in the UK in 2012, long before Brexit was on the cards"

read in full

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

I was glad to hear in R Reeves speech today. (The annual Mais Lecture at the Bayes Business School in London)

The UK should follow more of the European Union’s rules to boost trade and cut prices, Rachel Reeves said

She warned the UK risked being “stranded” between rival trading blocs unless it sought a closer relationship with Brussels.

She said the UK would still diverge from the EU’s regulations in some areas but they would be “the exception, not the norm”.

full speech
www.gov.uk/government/speeches/mais-lecture-2026

Oreo

I voted to Remain as I couldn’t really decide at the time, but since then, having more time to think about it, I think Leave was the right course.Unfortunately the Covid Pandemic and then the cost of supporting Ukraine hasn’t given Brexit a fighting chance.It just needs time.

If Brexit had been the right decision, it would have been resilient enough to withstand Covid and Ukraine crises.

Claiming that Brexit would work if only conditions were perfect is nonsensical. Any system has to factor in the unknown.

Wyllow3

MartavTaurus

It was apparent, when Covid reared its ugly head, that there was no joined up thinking between any of the EU countries.

Not true.

"So even if we were still a member of the EU, the UK regulator would have been able to take this decision on its own because EU law already allows it. Incidentally, that legislation took effect in the UK in 2012, long before Brexit was on the cards"

read in full

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-brexit-did-not-speed-up-uk-vaccine-authorisation

I think you misunderstood, Wyllow3.
I was referring to the initial response to the escalation of Covid, where there was little integrated thinking between the EU countries. Nothing to do with the UK and the vaccine??

At the time, Brexit or no Brexit, the EU was not great at coming together and working more systemically against the spread of Covid. A unified response wasn't quickly forthcoming because at the end of the day, each nation does what suits them best. Understandably and inevitable in a way.

The EU countries have often bickered, and wasted time and effort, though ironically with Ukraine and the current war now, there's far greater joined up thinking. And thankfully for everyone, Starmer is actually a driving force in this.

PS. I was somewhat perplexed as to why I might be expected to follow your rather abrupt command to read in full when the article was irrelevant to the point I was making?

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

nodramahere

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

That was 10 years ago. The "people" aren't the same people. Nothing is ever set in stone.

Same principle, MartavTaurus, ie each European country has the right to make its own decisions on that.

But I do admit I used it as a jumping off point for bringing up the speech, I could have posted that in a separate post after, and it's not relevant to Covid.

nodramahere

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

We are NOT trying to rejoin.

when Johnson made the choices he did around Brexit, he had a fairly blank sheet as regards many aspects, and could have actually have chosen to maintain certain trade standards across borders to make trade easier and ties not be broken.

Wyllow3

Same principle, MartavTaurus, ie each European country has the right to make its own decisions on that.

But I do admit I used it as a jumping off point for bringing up the speech, I could have posted that in a separate post after, and it's not relevant to Covid.

It's ironic. EU critics often claim that the EU behaves like a united federation and that individual states have no say. Covid demonstrated that states still have a considerable amount of autonomy. Healthcare and public health are two areas where states do act autonomously with limited co-operation.

Central European states nearly all had higher Covid death rates than the UK, which could reflect poorer healthcare, lower vaccination rates, older populations (who knows?) Of the Western and Northern European states, the UK had the highest death rates. I don't think there's a simple reason for that.

Each country is in charge of its own healthcare, as it should be.

twaddle

nodramahere

People voted for Brexit. Reeves has no business going against that.

That was 10 years ago. The "people" aren't the same people. Nothing is ever set in stone.

Except it would be set in stone if the vote had gone the other way.

Why? As a sovereign nation we can opt out of any agreement we are in.

I'd have no problem with a totally united federal Europe. In fact I'd be quite happy to have the rules dictated by Bruxelles -provided other European countries followed these directives to the letter. That's the issue I witnessed living in Europe for many years. France in particular was a master at agreeing to laws, then bending them to conveniently suit themselves!

…the rules dictated by Bruxelles’

Why use anti EU tropes when you must know perfectly well that ‘the rules’ were arrived at by agreement between the member states (and yes, I do know that some MS views were given more weight than others, I’m not totally naive), not central dictact by ‘unelected bureaucrats’.

MartavTaurus

I'd have no problem with a totally united federal Europe. In fact I'd be quite happy to have the rules dictated by Bruxelles -provided other European countries followed these directives to the letter. That's the issue I witnessed living in Europe for many years. France in particular was a master at agreeing to laws, then bending them to conveniently suit themselves!

Totally agree on this one, not just France, Spain is rather good at doing its own thing

I posted up thread the U.K. was good at following the rules to the letter maybe we should have been more fluid…

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

😂 very true

FriedGreenTomatoes2

The UK have always been Boy Scouts (dib dib dib) obeying every rule. To our own detriment at times. Some European countries treat rules as ‘optional’. Silly us, in hindsight.

Yet 'freedom of movement'. a great bone of contention in the EU debate, was one area where the UK didn't 'gold plate' the rules. In fact was extraordinarily lax over them.

We have, to some extent, our own bureaucracy to blame for the Brexit mess...