Nottingham stabbing inquiry

To manage the detention decisions risks more safely, within the MHA Act as it is currently worded- I agree with many others- MORE resources are needed to support those suffering from psychosis and other MH illnesses that are associated with risk for individuals and others. The effects of budget cuts and constraints, after many years of austerity are frightening and affect us all in one way or another...

Wyllow3

People should look up their facts before posting!

People are conflating two ethnic groups above by mentioning the grooming gangs. More racist assumptions.

The number of young men of Asian origin presenting with Schizophrenia is only very very slightly higher than white young men. Go look it up - I knew, but have just checked.

It is people of black Caribbean or African origin that present in far greater numbers. We don't know why, but a good guess is the history of institutionalised racism going back for years and years.

Less now, but still very alive and kicking, if you care to actually take the trouble to speak to a person of these origins as to what is was like as a child growing up black from these areas of origin. It does need some investigating by taking a good look at individuals experiences of those who are ill in a historical way.

I can understand the caution caused by assumptions made about people from those origins
and an awareness of some racism at work in the MH community (which fortunately now has increasing numbers of people from different ethnic origins working in Mental Health, but still not enough, as with the police)

including how they were treated in the past, when nearly all MH workers were white with their own assumptions.

*But I totally disagree that if the person in question showed real signs of being a real and immediate danger to the community would have been released into what community care there is, it would have happened*

I would have assumed that being we are still a predominantly white country that most MH workers would be white and that more white people go into this profession. I actually found your comment quite racist, but that’s not allowed is it.

I'm somewhat bemused by your comment above as I don't know where its going..or what is racist about suggesting its a good idea to have higher number in MH or the police from diverse ethnic backgrounds.

People from minorities in the UK are greatly under represented proportionally in the MH profession: it's getting better, but not there yet.

You can’t force people into jobs.

Indeed. This is illustrated by the fact that there are many vacancies in the profession across the board whatever your background.

It's not a popular job: stress is through the roof with more and more people % wise presenting to GP's with MH related conditions.

Some of those working MH experience weird reactions as if it were "catching", a nurse I spoke to a while ago never revealed what she did as a job to strangers, either becuase they plagued her with needy questions or thought it must sort of be catching or something.

Working conditions vary: to enable as many front line staff to be kept as possible, the old nice buildings were sold off so some operate from locally, are grim on main roads. Not all fortunately!

Not only will incidences like the one under discussion continue now and then, but surely most of us know or know of someone struggling with MH but unable to get the care they need?

And by the way, not to demonise people with the condition the offender suffers from: many live good working lives controlled by drugs just like with physical conditions.

It's heartbreaking to look at the three photos of the victims. Yesterday a friend and I took our dogs for a walk and an obviously mentally disturbed individual accosted us in a very aggressive way. We had no idea if he was armed in any way, we just chatted as amicably as we could and moved on, but it was very scary.
There needs to be more help for mentally ill people. Like everything else it seems to be a low priority.

Willow, I suggest you view the interviews today with the families of the three people murdered by Valocane, having listened to yet more evidence at the hearings.

I have. I dont lack empathy at all. I'm angry about the lack of resources, it need never have happened.

But I'll always call out aspects of racism.

It's a low blow to suggest I "dont care" because I've picked up on that today.

Wyllow3

I have. I dont lack empathy at all. I'm angry about the lack of resources, it need never have happened.

But I'll always call out aspects of racism.

It's a low blow to suggest I "dont care" because I've picked up on that today.

You don’t need to defend yourself Wyllow. I think some people have a need to pick a side and don’t appreciate more nuanced, balanced positions.

No people just hold different opinions. That's all.

@Sarnia It was stated yesterday by the bereaved families KC that he had not been sectioned because of his colour. Hard facts spoken by a KC. Had he been sectioned, these 3 innocent people, 2 of them on the threshold of their adult lives would still be here today.

You have misunderstood, or not thoroughtly read, what was said.

In 2020 , no previous history, he had his first MH episode; saw a DR who diagnosed psychosis. You need to understand that a single psychotic episode can arise for several reasons;
(extreme stress, sleep deprivation; drug use) . Not unknown in university students during finals; (high stress, lack of sleep; self medication(. Many only ever have one episode which never recurs. So of itself, this 2020 event was not NOT diagnostic of schizophrenia , or any major mental illness.. The dr and MH team all knew it might be a one off. This was three years before he killed 3.

In the following two years he had further episodes and WAS SECTIONED under the mental health act 4 times between 2020 and 2022. ( "sectioned" = committed to mental ward as inpatient) .

<https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/sectioning/about-sectioning/>

By then. doctors had diagnosed schizophrenia.

The stabbing happened the following year in 2023.

Such is the nature of schizophrenia symptoms (paranoia, delusions, and hearing voices) often convince the patient that he is not ill.
The side effects of medications used to treat schizophrenia are very difficult to endure. Combined with the mental symptoms of the illness, it's exceptionally hard to self-medicate correctly. Most need to receive their medication directly from a nurse or doctor. Properly done, it can be very effective.
Care in the Community was supposed to provide the trained staff and facilities to properly medicate and support people outside of hospital , living in the community. Due to lack of funding, it's hopelessly patchy and Calocane's history is an awful example of that. His life, his victims and their families and friends lives are all blighted by this illness; and by our society's many failures to manage it.

Galaxy

No people just hold different opinions. That's all.

You can hold a different view but you should be able to explain it rationally and also avoid always thinking everything is either /or. This always seems to become the case when race comes into the discussion.

Tuliptree

Wyllow3

I have. I dont lack empathy at all. I'm angry about the lack of resources, it need never have happened.

But I'll always call out aspects of racism.

It's a low blow to suggest I "dont care" because I've picked up on that today.

You don’t need to defend yourself Wyllow. I think some people have a need to pick a side and don’t appreciate more nuanced, balanced positions.

'I'll always call out racism'
Totally agree with your stance Wyllow. The subject has absolutely nothing to do grooming gangs, constituted of ethnic minorities or otherwise.

For posters to suggest you're not capable of feeling the families' grief & sharing the horror at these tragic deaths, because you don't share their viewpoint, is disrespectful.

I have done that. I loathe identity politics. Loathe them. We have divided ourselves into groups and pitted groups against each other. And then people are surprised when it turns out badly.

I don't see how identity politics relates to what we are talking about here.

Failures indeed but I do wonder whether public inquiries really achieve much.

In this case, the only useful outcome would be to underline how appalling the shortage of care and oversight is available in MH, make a big issue of it, rather than pointing any fingers specifically, imo.
Because when you just do the latter, you fail to address the real problem, the system itself, the lack of adequate supervision and workforce problems.

You end up with "lessons to be learnt" with no money for the lessons to be learnt, unless there was clear culpability by an individual that can be addressed.

The report from the inquiry shows failures all round. There will be no positive change for the community.
It fails because it does not name the psychiatrist that failed in their duty to treat Calocane. That is the bottom line of failings here.

Wyllow3

In this case, the only useful outcome would be to underline how appalling the shortage of care and oversight is available in MH, make a big issue of it, rather than pointing any fingers specifically, imo.
Because when you just do the latter, you fail to address the real problem, the system itself, the lack of adequate supervision and workforce problems.

I don’t agree as you certainly can point fingers in many cases.

It’s not always about money and resources but quite often about poor decisions.

Oreo

It’s not always about money and resources but quite often about poor decisions.

And decisions are made by individuals.
If individuals are not held to account, systems will fail to change in our country.

Well, of course it depends on the situation.

Sometimes, there is a really clear point of accountability. And then it matters, and it matters as to what their mistakes specifically were so's to learn and to remove those not capable.

But what I am trying to say is that this seems to me to be of a complex decision that in this case went wrong, inevitably they cannot get it right all the time: and again, had they more resources monitoring would have been better.

People seem to be unaware that the psychiatrist's name may have been withheld not because they did wrong, but in order to protect them from attack.
You want to add that to the equation?

I say that, because when an individual is clearly culpable, they are named.

Well, then there should be statutory powers to compel witnesses to appear to account for their failures. Ultimately they were responsible for discharging a violent man into the community to do harm. They knew he was evil, they knew he didn't take his medication. I'm no doctor, but I know that discharging someone in that state - 4 times I believe - is not going to protect the community from an attack, so why should the psychiatrist be protected from attack then?

It's actually quite common to be sectioned and discharged a number of times, and is most definitely not an indicator of violence in and of itself. this goes fro both people who have psychotic episodes and thoase with repeat sections for depression (as in danger of suicide?)

Because of this assumption, and a post upthread being frightened of "someone behaving oddly in the street", I'm giving you the stats. Note: this is an AI quote, but I have checked out the articles where the information is derived from as can you.

"Most are not violent: Roughly 90% of individuals with psychosis are never violent, and they are far more often a danger to themselves (through suicide) than to others.

Victimization is more common: People with severe mental illness are nearly three times more likely to be victims of crime compared to the general population.

Small, specific risk: While most are not violent, the risk of violence in people with untreated, severe psychotic disorders (particularly paranoid schizophrenia) is higher than in the general population, often due to persecutory delusions where they fear for their lives.

Substance misuse is the key factor: Almost all of the increased risk of violence associated with psychosis can be attributed to comorbid substance abuse rather than the psychosis itself.
Context of delusions: In rare cases of homicide committed by someone experiencing psychosis, it often stems from intense, delusional, or paranoid beliefs rather than premeditated, stereotypical "killer" behavior.

www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=people+behaving+in+a+strange+psychotic+way+are+not+killers&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8