How long can Starmer survive? Getting popcorn ready 🍿🍿

I agree with that last chunk of text as to "why". I didnt like it but....

here is the "Safe" replacement - looks interesting, this is the best article I can find.

www.politico.eu/article/christian-turner-picked-as-new-uk-ambassador-to-washington/#:~:text=The%20same%20person%20highlighted%20one,than%20most%20Foreign%20Office%20characters.”

Interesting News Agents this week.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dem9oO_WkA0

Lewis Goodall:

(Excuse any typos, spacing and punctuation errors. I’ve copy pasted this from the YouTube transcript.)

But looking across the media, the Guardian Mandelson's China stance make him bad choice for US ambassador say critics. The Times Lord Mandelson to be confirmed as US ambassador despite China claims. The Telegraph Mandelson rowed back on China praise in attempt to woo Trump. GB news Farage snubbed as if that's the big story. Farage snubbed. It always is. As Starmer announces new UK ambassador to the US. And then in terms of some individual comment pieces as well, we see a piece from Michael Gove, why Peter Mandelson is the best choice to handle Trump. We see another piece in the Mail, ruthless, cynical and cunning, why Mandy is the perfect choice to be US ambassador.

So there's two kind of corollaries to that. One is is that 12 months ago apart from the Financial Times and a few other people MPs in particular, generally speaking the received Westminster consensus was that Mandelson was a good pick and in so far as he was a bad pick the problem wasn't about Epstein the problem was about his China and EU relations.

Indeed I would say that what is particularly grim about this is I think we all know why Starmer appointed Mandelson and it's the thing he can't say which is he didn't pick Mandelson in spite in a sense of his Epstein connections and of being a dark character. He picked him because of it because he was the perfect fit it seemed for Trump for the Trump era for the Trump court. And the perfect way of testing that is, would Starmer have picked Mandelson if Kamala Harris had become president? No way. Absolutely not. No way. For loads of reasons including the Epstein connections. But the truth is that the received wisdom and you can see why Starmer did it is because the sort of man that Mandelson everyone sort of thought he was this sort of dark arts character someone who could thrive in the court with Trump he was picked because he was the sort of person who had those Epstein connections. Grim reality.

Iam64

foxie48

Did Starmer say he was badly advised? I didn't hear that. I thought he said that Mandelson had lied and lied and lied. I also thought that we paid solicitors to "advise " us on legal matters, sometimes they do give us "bad advice".

Starmer hasn’t blamed his advisors or himself. He’s stated, accurately I’m sure , that Mandelson lied and minimised. My continuing concern is that Keir Starmer allowed himself to be persuaded the liar Mandelson might just have had a personality transplant and become a (relatively) honest man

Maybe Mandelson is as manipulative as Epstein? I guess most of us can’t understand people like that. And ( going on about the documentary about coercive control that I watched) we can’t understand how people can be taken in by such people, even when we know about bad things that they have done in the past. The TRIP about it all is very interesting (of course Campbell knew Mandelson well and had briefly met Epstein). They, too, mentioned the relationship Johnson had with Lebedev. I hadn’t thought about how difficult it is for people trying to raise money for charities because they get drawn into social circles in which they can get introduced to potential benefactors. And once you’ve received money from someone they then have a hold over you. Eg Johnson and his No 10 refurbishment, Starmer and his glasses etc etc.

I think that Starmer will throw his advisors, McSweeney, under the political bus wheels next week, despite him having ‘full confidence’. It’ll quiet down a little but the May elections will be dreadful and he’ll have to go then.

By dragging it out, he will further sully the Labour brand, making it very difficult for them to win at the next election. Leaving us vulnerable to Reform. A shocking consequence.

If he resigned now, a new leader could establish themselves and improve their election chances, giving the Labour government a rebrand and fresh start. He won’t though, he’ll hang on and on, taking the party down with him.

I thought she was very good, she is improving.

Well said, Graphite, and Iam.

I'm reposting bits of a post that I out on the wrong thread.

"I totally disagree this has put people off Labour specifically as opposed to politics in general:

Something far bigger is happening than Starmer making a bad choice in Mandelson!

We are watching the spectacle of what was always "known" but is now piece by piece being uncovered -

the revelation of how these international webs of powerful -mostly men- operate over long time periods and threaten national and international security

The Mandelson issue is important in that there are lessons to be learnt clearly within the LP on appointments,

but considering the social and political impacts of the falling down of the whole Epstein empire with all its tentacles is far, far, more significant, as it wont be the only one.

And by the way, regarding this, at PMQ, Badenoch's repeated attempts to try and hang, draw and quarter Starmer over this, endlessly are pathetic

She should join the government in international concerns not only over the fall out from Epstein but the need to try and prevent similar things occurring again, especially in the hands of and the connections of her worst enemy, who is probably Farage.

That’s right, Farage is not ‘in power ‘
Thank goodness for that small mercy

Ladyleftfieldlover

Come on people… do we really want to get into Tory territory with a new PM every few months, if not weeks? Starmer has had an incredibly difficult start to his tenure. Admit it, the Tories were absolutely appalling. Liz Truss! Johnson. Both dreadful in their own special way. Of course the world is in utter turmoil at the moment, mainly due to the actions of the mad man in the Oval Office, trump. IMO Starmer is currently the best person for the international part of the job and with any luck it would be long before we’re back in the EU.

Oh, and why are the BBC going on constantly about Starmer’s missteps when Farage has behaved so incredibly badly.

Farage is not in power.

“Allira
Sometimes we have to stay with the lesser of two evils (or least of possible evils).

I think we need to stay with the status quo at these tumultuous times, despite the fact that some of the decisions and U turns this Government (not Starmer alone) has made have been uncertain and disappointing.

My thoughts exactly Allira during Covid (a never-before experienced world-wide event) which BJ and his government had to negotiate - but the benefit of the doubt was never afforded to him or his party then by the Lefties on GN

The difference being that Boris and his lot were happily laughing at the rest of us and ignoring their own rules.”

Let’s just say, I disagree …

foxie48

Did Starmer say he was badly advised? I didn't hear that. I thought he said that Mandelson had lied and lied and lied. I also thought that we paid solicitors to "advise " us on legal matters, sometimes they do give us "bad advice".

Starmer hasn’t blamed his advisors or himself. He’s stated, accurately I’m sure , that Mandelson lied and minimised. My continuing concern is that Keir Starmer allowed himself to be persuaded the liar Mandelson might just have had a personality transplant and become a (relatively) honest man

MaizieD

^Labour have used the device themselves in the past, indeed Starmer did in 2017 when Shadow Brexit Secretary, calling for economic impact assessments. He told the HoC: “We believe this is a binding motion.”^

Yes, but Labour used it in opposition.

When in government it wouldn't be expected that MPs in the government party would support it if it were contrary to the government's wishes.

I’m still not understanding, Maizie. Badenoch has used the humble address in opposition. I do understand that many Labour MPs support her in this. Starmer, having used it himself, knows its purpose. It’s about transparency. Chris Wormald will be asked to carry out the task of collating the documents on the government’s behalf. If any documents are withheld other than on genuine grounds of national security then Starmer will be writing his own P45 but until we see what’s in them, I’m reserving judgement on what's happened here.

I agree with others; no British Prime Minister has ever had to deal with a malevolent madman of a US President who, with a few strokes of his Sharpie, can impose sanctions in the form of crippling tariffs against any country which happens to upset him that day. I think Mandelson’s appointment as Ambassador was much to do with Starmer trying to appoint somebody who he believed could deal with Trump’s challenging behaviour (to put it mildly). We know that Trump does respond to Starmer, witness the former’s changed position on Chagos. Those skills are going to be vital as Trump’s health deteriorates and his behaviour becomes even more unpredicatable.

On Tory excess during the pandemic, let’s not forget that former Tory now Reform Party Treasurer Nick Candy was at the infamous drinking and dancing Christmas party.

Note what it says here:

news.sky.com/story/partygate-video-who-is-in-the-footage-of-the-conservative-christmas-party-during-covid-lockdown-12905279

Nick Candy … is a Tory Donor and is best known for his interest in property development … His time in development led to him working on projects including London's One Hyde Park …

… which he sold to Epstein. Lots about that in the files. Candy was friends with Epstein, Maxwell and Sarah Kellen, the American interior designer described as a central figure in Epstein’s inner circle and sex-trafficking operation.

Mandelson worked with Epstein against the British government before Starmer’s time. Farage and Candy are still part of the circle of rich, powerful and malign people that Epstein gathered around him including Bannon and Thiel. Who is the biggest danger here for the future of the country?

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CariadAgain

Allira

TheHappyGardener

Allira

Sometimes we have to stay with the lesser of two evils (or least of possible evils).

I think we need to stay with the status quo at these tumultuous times, despite the fact that some of the decisions and U turns this Government (not Starmer alone) has made have been uncertain and disappointing.

My thoughts exactly Allira during Covid (a never-before experienced world-wide event) which BJ and his government had to negotiate - but the benefit of the doubt was never afforded to him or his party then by the Lefties on GN

The difference being that Boris and his lot were happily laughing at the rest of us and ignoring their own rules.

Well sorta - re Covid and all that. As a few centuries back wasnt it the Black Plague around and Lockdown then (so bad that they nailed up the doors of people who had it - so they literally couldnt get out their doors - even though that meant they'd starve to death)?

Wasnt it the 1920's there was a bad flu epidemic (not human-made that time) and restrictions?

What on earth has the way Plague was handled (or flu a century ago, for that matter) got to do with giving PPE contracts to cronies, locking up citizens whilst partying in Downing Street, driving to Bishop Aukland and lying to the Queen?

Did Starmer say he was badly advised? I didn't hear that. I thought he said that Mandelson had lied and lied and lied. I also thought that we paid solicitors to "advise " us on legal matters, sometimes they do give us "bad advice".

Have been at hospital most of the day so not been able to follow this story. Driving home I caught the 6pm news and heard Starmer saying how sorry he was and how he was “badly advised” about Mandelson.

Isn’t that exactly the phrase Angela Rayner used when she got uncovered for failing to pay £40,000 tax. She too was “badly advised”.

They blame everybody except themselves.

CariadAgain

As for Reform = we're in a "What else can you do?" situation - as yet more boats pile illicitly across our Channel and yet more non-Western men refuse to treat women with respect as equal human beings?

You know that some of us at least have had enough when someone working in our Border Force deliberately quits their job and retrains - as they refuse to be part of shipping in yet more "illegals". They took on a normal job originally - but then it got turned against them and they were made to do this instead of normal work...

I see no viable alternative to Reform personally - as who else do we stand a chance with of trying to stop all this?

Do you honestly think that the boats are the most important problem facing this country? And that Reform have a solution to it? Can you not see what’s happening in America with Farages idol Trump?

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Allira

TheHappyGardener

Allira

Sometimes we have to stay with the lesser of two evils (or least of possible evils).

I think we need to stay with the status quo at these tumultuous times, despite the fact that some of the decisions and U turns this Government (not Starmer alone) has made have been uncertain and disappointing.

My thoughts exactly Allira during Covid (a never-before experienced world-wide event) which BJ and his government had to negotiate - but the benefit of the doubt was never afforded to him or his party then by the Lefties on GN

The difference being that Boris and his lot were happily laughing at the rest of us and ignoring their own rules.

Well sorta - re Covid and all that. As a few centuries back wasnt it the Black Plague around and Lockdown then (so bad that they nailed up the doors of people who had it - so they literally couldnt get out their doors - even though that meant they'd starve to death)?

Wasnt it the 1920's there was a bad flu epidemic (not human-made that time) and restrictions?

Starmer has not been anywhere near as good as I'd hoped, but he has had far more challenges than the last lot - not least being the media, who never let up for a minute. Doodledog.

You're right. He may not be improving things as fast as we might like but they are improving things; they are not making things worse.

MaizieD

Lawyer David Allen Green says that the fact that the government was defeated in the debate on the disclosure of the vetting documents has caused a constitutional crisis from which it would be very hard to recover. The crisis arises from Parliament overriding a decision of the government.

Can Starmer sit this one out?

The government being embarrassed or constrained doesn’t mean the constitutional order is threatened. A real constitutional crisis would involve legal deadlock or institutions issuing incompatible commands, which isn’t happening here.

Parliament has demanded documents from the government before, and exercising that power may be uncomfortable or unusual, but it isn’t unconstitutional. Discomfort doesn’t equal crisis.

Basically, Parliament asserting its authority over the government isn’t a constitutional emergency it’s the constitution doing its job.

David Green is operating as an independent legal commentator within publications that have been sceptical of Starmer. He joined the Lib Dems in 2011 although there is no obvious tie to them currently. This is far from an article about legalities and it's written for publications that tend to be anti-Starmer. Sometimes we want to read what agrees with our own, in your case strongly-held, point if view Maizie. That doesn't make them right.

TheHappyGardener

Allira

Sometimes we have to stay with the lesser of two evils (or least of possible evils).

I think we need to stay with the status quo at these tumultuous times, despite the fact that some of the decisions and U turns this Government (not Starmer alone) has made have been uncertain and disappointing.

My thoughts exactly Allira during Covid (a never-before experienced world-wide event) which BJ and his government had to negotiate - but the benefit of the doubt was never afforded to him or his party then by the Lefties on GN

The difference being that Boris and his lot were happily laughing at the rest of us and ignoring their own rules.

Ed Davey seems to be calling for Starmers resignation, too. Now, I’ve always liked the LibDems, was a member for a while and campaigned for them because of their stance on Europe. But I have pointed out to them that Davey seems to have forgotten that he was implicated in the postmasters scandal when in coalition and he assumes that everyone else has forgotten about that, too.

Are those so critical of Keir Starmer prepared for a Reform government? I live in Kent and they appear to be making a real mess here, the thought of Farage as PM fills me with horror.

I voted Labour, always have, and am disappointed things aren’t going better, but understand that what Labour came into was very difficult after 14 years of Tory mess. This media pile on is only to be expected I suppose, too good an opportunity to miss.

Allira

Sometimes we have to stay with the lesser of two evils (or least of possible evils).

I think we need to stay with the status quo at these tumultuous times, despite the fact that some of the decisions and U turns this Government (not Starmer alone) has made have been uncertain and disappointing.

My thoughts exactly Allira during Covid (a never-before experienced world-wide event) which BJ and his government had to negotiate - but the benefit of the doubt was never afforded to him or his party then by the Lefties on GN

In 2008 Kier was appointed head of the CPS. This same year Mandelson was the head of the EUtrade commission.
At this time he was involved in the Aluminium scandal.
At this time he just happened to be a close friend of a Russian oligarch who owned the largest Aluminium plants in Russia.
Mandelson dropped all tariffs on Russian Aluminium.
The old pals club ( eu commission) decided that there was no wrong doing.
This story was huge. Did kier not get wind of it 🤷‍♀️