LAst night I discovered that Rachel Reeves, I think in the context of being interviewed about student loans, had this to say:
"It is not right that people who don't go to university bear the cost for others to"
I couldn't believe my eyes when I read that.
Leaving aside the point which I have made over and over again, that taxation doesn't fund spending because:
1) all money comes from the state, either by way of its direct spending on goods and services or via commercial bank loans, made under licence from the state.
2) Spending comes before taxation as without state spending money there would be no money to tax back
So no-one but the state itself is bearing the cost of University education.
Reeves' statement seems to me to be to be contradicting the Labour principles behind the provision of 'public goods' one of which is universal education. But, worse than that, it is promoting an attitude which has no logic. There are lots of services provided by the state which not everyone benefits from; we don't all use the courts, we don't all make heavy demands on the NHS, some people pay for private health services and don't use it al all, we don't all have children in state schools (understand that I'm using 'we' to encompass the whole UK population) to name but a few examples.
Reeves' statement makes it seem reasonable that people should complain and feel resentful about the state financing services which they themselves don't use. Where on earth is her 'reasoning' meant to lead us?
Are we to make an annual declaration of the state financed services we do use and receive a tax rebate to cover the cost of services we don't use?
Is it permission to resent and demonise those who do make more use of state provision than we do? (and heaven knows, there's more than enough of that going on already)
Is it move towards the privatisation and marketisation of all services so we can choose and pay for whichever ones we need (if we can afford it)?
Of course, since Thatcher, there has been an ideological move towards privatisation of as much state provision as governments can get away with because that is a driving feature of the neoliberal economic strategy which has informed government policy since then. It is still ongoing. How many people are able to get NHS dental treatment? How many private care providers are there, the numbers increasing as councils become more and more cash strapped?
I realise that there are differences of opinion over the balance between private and state funded services but I have always regarded Labour as. at heart, being in favour of state provision to ensure that all citizens have access to essential services.
That Reeves' apparent defence of the student loans which impose a heavy long term burden on those aspiring to better themselves through a university education and who in part comprise the teachers, nurses and doctors who are vital to the health and wellbeing of the population really worries me.
But her implication that a university education is a personal indulgence which doesn't deserve the support of the government and state support can be justifiably resented by those who don't go to university utterly astounds and sickens me.
I don't think Reeves has a single vaguely left wing, Labour principled bone in her body, she is in the wrong party and is totally unsuitable for high office in a Labour government.
MartavTaurus
^We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus denoting a perfectly good A.^
Not any longer, since 2017 onwards. We don't have stars anymore, we don't have letters, we have grades 9 - 1.
It is sort of possible to align the new numbers with the old grades, but no stars at the top.
Still A*-G and A*-E in Wales.
Behind the times.
Yes mamie , my mistake, but 53% was quoted yesterday as I said. There was some discussion about it.
I can only report what I heard
silverlining48
Off subject but I heard on the Today programme this morning that 53% of all students get a first. 53%! ? Astonishing. So given
say 35% or more get an upper second, that leaves what was once a perfectly decent 2.2 replacing the no longer even heard of Third.
If 90% of students are getting firsts and upper seconds they will all be in competition for the same jobs, it’s no wonder so many leave the country or continue their expensive studies to be able to get ahead of the crowd.
I graduated in the mid 80 s as a relatively mature student and not one of our large group of mixed aged students gained a first , a handful had 2.1s , the majority 2.2s and a few had third class degrees without the Hons.
We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus demoting a perfectly good A. If every other student is gaining a First degree, unless they are lucky, they are in competition for ‘starter level jobs’ with those who have left school at 16 or 18 who don’t expect the level of pay that a Graduate does. No wonder so many are claiming benefits.
The Office for statistics says 29% of UK graduates get a first. An A* is an A level grade not GCSE.
We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus denoting a perfectly good A.
Not any longer, since 2017 onwards. We don't have stars anymore, we don't have letters, we have grades 9 - 1.
It is sort of possible to align the new numbers with the old grades, but no stars at the top.
I don't think Reeves has a single vaguely left wing, Labour principled bone in her body, she is in the wrong party and is totally unsuitable for high office in a Labour government.
I agree with your sentiments Maizie about student loans. Unfortunately I think the sentences above seem to apply to every politician in the Party, and most of the other parties too. I don’t recognise any Labour Party principles from my younger days, and from which I benefited, in the members of the current government. Other parties similarly - career politicians defecting to seemingly more popular parties. No wonder voters don’t turn out when our system of government is used by these self-serving people for their own ends.
To be accurate, it was yesterday morning 🌅
Off subject but I heard on the Today programme this morning that 53% of all students get a first. 53%! ? Astonishing. So given
say 35% or more get an upper second, that leaves what was once a perfectly decent 2.2 replacing the no longer even heard of Third.
If 90% of students are getting firsts and upper seconds they will all be in competition for the same jobs, it’s no wonder so many leave the country or continue their expensive studies to be able to get ahead of the crowd.
I graduated in the mid 80 s as a relatively mature student and not one of our large group of mixed aged students gained a first , a handful had 2.1s , the majority 2.2s and a few had third class degrees without the Hons.
We now have stars attached to GCSE’s thus demoting a perfectly good A. If every other student is gaining a First degree, unless they are lucky, they are in competition for ‘starter level jobs’ with those who have left school at 16 or 18 who don’t expect the level of pay that a Graduate does. No wonder so many are claiming benefits.
Mollygo
Actually it’s free whether you’re Scottish or not. My cousin’s family let their house in Dorset and moved to Edinburgh whilst their children were at University.
They reckoned it was worthwhile and she made the most of it by studying midwifery while they were there.
Yes, of course.
I should have said Scottish residents.
Actually it’s free whether you’re Scottish or not. My cousin’s family let their house in Dorset and moved to Edinburgh whilst their children were at University.
They reckoned it was worthwhile and she made the most of it by studying midwifery while they were there.
Allira
vegansrock
University education is free… in Scotland. Just sayin’
For Scottish students resident in Scotland.
Yes - just saying that free university education is available within the UK.- For those residing in Scotland. It’s a matter of deciding whether or not university education should be free - it’s not an impossibility.
Sorry - I should have included that IMO education should be free to students capable of benefiting from it.
MaizieD
Doodledog
with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. ^If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.*
Agreed. It's either that or make contributions compulsory, and there would be numerous problems with that.
Also, one of the many problems with means-testing based on household income is that it is made up in different ways. Why should a family with two workers earning £20k each lose out, when a student from another with a single earner on £39k gets a grant because the other parent is unwilling to get a job? Maybe if a cut-off were set by dividing the income by the number of adults in the household it would be fairer. But then what about people who can't work for good reasons?
Obviously those figures are made up, but the point is that means-testing is such a blunt instrument.I seem to recall that in the past student grants were tapered according to parental income rather than arbitrarily means tested.
I do think that there will be an element of unfairness for some in whatever system is used to assess receipts of such things as grants or benefits, Perhaps the most that can be done is to mitigate it as far as is possible.
If there is always going to be an element of unfairness in means-testing, why use it? It drags people down instead of enabling them.
As most graduates earn more than non-graduates over their careers, they will pay more tax, so why set up a complicated and expensive system of means-testing their parents?
vegansrock
University education is free… in Scotland. Just sayin’
For Scottish students resident in Scotland.
University education is free… in Scotland. Just sayin’
Rosie51
Grantanow
Rosie51
Grantanow I agree, MaizieD. Education like other public services is a public good from which we all benefit and it should be funded through general taxation as it once was with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals.
with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.No, if parents won't sign the form ( as sometimes happened in former times through ignorance, bad attitude to higher education, estrangement or sheer bloodymindedness) then the student should be assisted. It wd be possible to require parents' employers to provide salary information or extract income data via HMRC.
What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information? Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?
Precisely.
What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information?
Surely against Data Protection regulations?
Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?
Yes, they are adults - can parents be compelled to support them?
Galaxy
Many many people resent ( often quite rightly) those who don't work, particularly if there are concerns around the legitimacy of that non working.
I can completely understand why those on minimum wage might feel some level of resentment towards my middle class children receiving a grant towards university education which will more than likely give them a non minimum wage career.
There are plenty of non-graduates on high incomes such as self-employed plumbers and similar trades, footballers, TV personalities, trades union officials, MPs, etc., but people don't seem to resent them.
Grantanow
Rosie51
Grantanow I agree, MaizieD. Education like other public services is a public good from which we all benefit and it should be funded through general taxation as it once was with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals.
with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.No, if parents won't sign the form ( as sometimes happened in former times through ignorance, bad attitude to higher education, estrangement or sheer bloodymindedness) then the student should be assisted. It wd be possible to require parents' employers to provide salary information or extract income data via HMRC.
What would be the point of getting employers to provide salary information? Unless you were then going to legally compel parents to financially support their adult child?
Rosie51
Grantanow I agree, MaizieD. Education like other public services is a public good from which we all benefit and it should be funded through general taxation as it once was with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals.
with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against. If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.
No, if parents won't sign the form ( as sometimes happened in former times through ignorance, bad attitude to higher education, estrangement or sheer bloodymindedness) then the student should be assisted. It wd be possible to require parents' employers to provide salary information or extract income data via HMRC.
Tell you what, why should people who have no children pay towards education? Why should people who are not ill pay for medicines and hospitals ? Just get rid of the stupid woman, she is a disgrace. Certainly not a Labour believer.
Doodledog
*with parental income assessment for maintenance grants to help poorer individuals is what I will argue against.* ^If somebody's parents are unwilling to financially support them in further education, are you quite happy for that individual to be denied their opportunity? Basic maintenance grants should be available to all.*
Agreed. It's either that or make contributions compulsory, and there would be numerous problems with that.
Also, one of the many problems with means-testing based on household income is that it is made up in different ways. Why should a family with two workers earning £20k each lose out, when a student from another with a single earner on £39k gets a grant because the other parent is unwilling to get a job? Maybe if a cut-off were set by dividing the income by the number of adults in the household it would be fairer. But then what about people who can't work for good reasons?
Obviously those figures are made up, but the point is that means-testing is such a blunt instrument.
I seem to recall that in the past student grants were tapered according to parental income rather than arbitrarily means tested.
I do think that there will be an element of unfairness for some in whatever system is used to assess receipts of such things as grants or benefits, Perhaps the most that can be done is to mitigate it as far as is possible.
I do remember that "joke" that did the rounds years ago, something like
Q "What do you say when you meet an Oxford graduate?"
A "A Big Mac and French fries, please".
Young relative had just graduated from Oxford at that time, she didn't work in Macdonald's but didn't exactly get her dream job straight away but she worked.
However, I'm sure that graduates from that era will have progressed from their temporary jobs working in Macdonald's into more interesting and lucrative careers.
And at least they were working pro tem and probably didn't have such huge student debt.
People aren't not choosing not to go to university are they, because the middle classes know it is a way to a well paid career
When one reads of graduates working as baristas and unemployed medical school graduates one wonders how much young people believe the idea that a degree leads to a well paid career. Especially if it means paying off a student loan which appears to increase as it's paid off rather than diminish.
Hilltop
The student 'loan' is not now like a normal loan where a person borrows money and then later pays it back with a reasonable amount of interest. The government are acting like loan sharks with student debt now. The interest, and other conditions with it, are unfair.
I don't know what the interest rate is now on student loans but I do know that the rules regarding repayment have changed so much over the years that some will find their loans, if not paid off in full, will be written off after a certain time, that time being variable, others will not, the rates of interest are variable.
It's arbitrary and unfair.
University fees for British students studying in British universities should be abolished. Living expenses are so high no wonder students end up with eye watering debt.
The fees were introduced by Labour which seemed to be against their principles, yet at the same time Blair's Government encouraged more school leavers to aim for university education.
What she was doing was that cheap, easy appeal to people who think their pockets are being picked to subsidise others while they, of course, are 100% self-funding. Show me a person who is.
This is what I was so angry about.
By using this meme she was completely betraying the Labour principle of funding universal provision of public goods by apparently agreeing with people who seem to resent the fact that some people are being funded for something they themselves neither want nor feel the need for. Not just agreeing, but, by being the Chancellor, an authoritative figure, actually encouraging them to think like that.
But society couldn't survive without those who work in shops, those who provide care for the elderly, etc ( we found this out in a fairly brutal way during the pandemic).
People aren't not choosing not to go to university are they, because the middle classes know it is a way to a well paid career.
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