Trump and Putin negotiating War in Ukraine without Zelensky?

Does it involve an unknown person whose nickname is 'Bubba'?
Nuff said.

I heard a rather rude reason today as to why Trump is so willing to appease Putin. I can’t repeat it 😳, but I reckon anything can be true.

Just listening to a senior German politician who said that if Trump follows through with the so called peace agreement with Putin, he will in fact have changed sides.

Next week the EU will use the billions of frozen Russian assets to give to Ukraine to replace USA withdrawn aid.

The current Russian "mindset" is Putin's. How on earth is anyone supposed to engage with what he is thinking? I can only judge him by his actions. There are 19,500 verified cases of children being illegally taken to Russia from Ukraine. Russia is recruiting foreign troops to fight in Ukraine, this is hardly the actions of a country that wants peace. There is extensive evidence of Russia's widespread and systematic violations of the rules of war. Russian spy ships have been seen in British waters and lasers have been used to target our planes and pilots. I could go on, Ronib but I would be happy to read anything you add to this thread that provides reliable information that Russia is not, ATM, a malign force in the world and we should support it's desire to annex large parts of Ukraine.

Okay foxie not so much being rather horrible to Russia but not engaging enough with the current Russian mindset?
To be clear, I would never have encouraged Zelensky to act as he did. It was never going to end well for Ukraine. Unfortunately.

Ronib Ukraine is the under dog and Russia is the aggressor. Russia's population is three times that of Ukraine. Russia has almost three times the land mass of Ukraine. Russia's nominal GDP is ten times that of Ukraine. Ukraine did not invade Russia either in 2014 or 2022 but Russia did invade Ukraine.

Actually Europe has been pretty pro-Russia since the end of communism, many countries have energy deals with Russia that have made them too dependent on Russia, I doubt they would have done that if they were being anti-Russian. Russia became a member of the G7 in 1997 and was only kicked out because it invaded Ukraine. Initially Putin looked as if he was someone the West could do deals with and tbh I think we all heaved a sigh of relief. Ukraine gave up the nuclear weapons that they had because Russia promised them peace. Sweden and Finland have joined NATO because they fear the threat of a Russian invasion not because they want to attack Russia. I think your "we're all being horrible to Russia" stance is really rather difficult to assert.

You are omitting a number of factors - one of which is that Putin’s intention has always been to get back the territory that existed before 1991. NATO of course is a good excuse.

Yes we know that but for some reason, Putin continues to see NATO as a threat. It’s the Russian perception against Western expansion I guess? Perception and reality don’t always match. Aveline

But Nato has no ambitions to invade Russia.

In a nutshell foxie48 Ukraine is seen as the underdog and Russia the aggressor. There’s very little comment on what Russia’s game plan is apart from statements saying that it will continue to expand. Not much recognition of Russia’s perceived view on NATO as a threat to Russia. We’re very embedded in an anti Russian position. Obviously Russians will be very anti West and so it continues with even more losses.

fancythat

fancythat

ronib

Russia has a huge population and Ukraine has lost about 10 million leaving it with around 30 million. Not sustainable.

Eh> You cant mean 10 million people in fighting, surely?

I think I thought I used to agree with you quite a lot.

But when you fling numbers around, and say things, and dont answer what appears to be way out posts, I am questioning myself.

It's terrible, but what Ronib said is confirmed by multiple sources.

ukraine.un.org/en/289506-unhcr-after-three-years-war-ukrainians-need-peace-and-aid

"UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, estimates that 10.6 million Ukrainians are displaced – almost a quarter of its pre-war population. Inside Ukraine, 3.7 million have been uprooted, while 6.9 million refugees continue to receive protection abroad. More than 2 million homes across Ukraine – 10 per cent of the housing stock – have been damaged or destroyed. Repeated attacks on energy infrastructure continue to plunge people into cold and darkness, while further disrupting strained local services. The newly displaced are increasingly vulnerable – older people and those living with disabilities – who often face additional challenges in accessing services they need the most. <....> Inside Ukraine, 12.7 million people – one third of the current population – need humanitarian assistance.It is estimated that up to one-third of Ukraine's territory has been exposed to contamination by landmines and ordnance. The impact of the war on the economy is extensive – agricultural and industrial hubs in the east have been devastated, and an estimated 30 per cent of pre-war jobs lost. "

euobserver.com/health-and-society/ar978eff35

ronib

The point I labour to make is that we, here on GNet simply do not have the facts at our disposal. It doesn’t stop the assertions though.
I am finding the language around the Ukraine Russia debate very predictable however.

Well the "assertions" that I make are based on fact, if they are not factual, please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. I'm a bit mystified about "what language around the Ukraine Russia debate" is very predictable, can you explain, please?

I agree with you Aveline 👍

Sorry I had a medical appointment today fancythat

fancythat

ronib

Russia has a huge population and Ukraine has lost about 10 million leaving it with around 30 million. Not sustainable.

Eh> You cant mean 10 million people in fighting, surely?

I think I thought I used to agree with you quite a lot.

But when you fling numbers around, and say things, and dont answer what appears to be way out posts, I am questioning myself.

And neither will Putin stop at Ukraine if Trump appeases putin who gets what he wants.

Actually it's quite simple. Russia invaded Ukraine and has continued to carry out bombing and murder as well as stealing children. This is a straightforward goodies versus baddies situation. There are nuances of course but they don't take away from the fact the that Ukraine has been wronged and grievously wronged.

The point I labour to make is that we, here on GNet simply do not have the facts at our disposal. It doesn’t stop the assertions though.
I am finding the language around the Ukraine Russia debate very predictable however.

ronib

How exactly do we know that Zelensky has been fighting corruption? Evidence?

How do you know he has not? Evidence?
Well, there is no evidence or even a suggestion that Zelensky has done anything to interfere with or shut down the investigation that has been ongoing for the past 18 months by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, ( NABU), and the Special Anti-Corruption Prosecutor’s Office, (SAP) which has led to a number of arrests of high profile Ukrainians. So what evidence do you have Ronib that he has not been fighting corruption as well as fighting a war?

Thanks foxie

foxie48

*I don’t understand why it’s okay for so many young men to have died in this war. And to show no wish to stop the slaughter. *

Ronib I haven't seen any evidence that anyone thinks *it's OK" for anyone to die in this awful conflict whether they are Ukrainian or Russian. In terms of actual casualties, Russia is losing many more soldiers than Ukraine and the progress of it's troops into Ukraine has been extremely slow. Yet, Putin shows no sign of wanting to stop his aggression. The deal put forward by Trump rewards Putin for his aggression, gives him more territory than he has actually taken so far, removes Ukraine's ability to defend itself in the future and would prevent Ukraine from furthering it's request to join NATO. It would also remove all the sanctions on Russia enabling Putin to rebuild his economic strength. How would this prevent further conflict and aggression in the future and prevent further "slaughter" of innocent people?

Exactly this. Thank you.

How exactly do we know that Zelensky has been fighting corruption? Evidence?

I would rather use the fact that Zelensky has been fighting corruption as well as the Russians as even more reason to support him.

I see he is at the G20 meeting. I hope he gets the support he vitally needs.

Sadly there's corruption in every country but I think it's wrong to describe a country as corrupt, some governments are corrupt, some people are corrupt, in some countries corruption is used to earn a living wage and in others to enrich people beyond most people's wildest dreams. Zelensky was brought in to tackle corruption and he's been doing that. He's also dealt correctly with those he's found to be corrupt swiftly, even when they have been close allies. FGS please don't use corruption as a reason not to support Ukraine. Russia is most certainly much more corrupt than Ukraine and as to Trump???

I have never had a problem with it.

Until there is a large number of people having problems with it, I will continue to use it.

Though I do take your point.