No tax rises

I do know the rental market pretty well I have a couple of small apartments let, they are pretty basic, suitable for a single or a couple without kids. Over the years they have been a general pain but are on site and can’t be sold off easily, recently they’ve been let to single men who’ve been pretty good.

3 yrs ago we had some spare cash and did look seriously at the Buy to let market and viewed several properties, modern 2/3 bed, having to pay Stamp Duty, Income Tax, CGT plus agents fees on top of mortgage costs put us off. We dropped the idea, interest rate rising since then confirmed it was the right decision, so the cash for deposit we had went into ISAs.

My main business is commercial property, much better, tenants have been really good, they just want to be left to be left alone to do what they do, little regulation, I do external maintenence and occasional refurbishment. If I was younger I would be expanding but at 76 I dont enjoy the hassle as I did 20 yrs ago

LizzieDrip It made me think about it too such that I indulged in one of my favourite pastimes - looking up things in the OED:

Property ladder

Chiefly British a series of stages by which homeowners are perceived to progress as they are able to afford increasingly expensive properties, the initial stage consisting of buying their first home; cf. housing ladder n.

Worryingly the earliest written example comes from the ^Eugenics Review ^1941

Prestige goes primarily with the ownership of property... Social security, too, depends on climbing the income and property ladder

Here’s one for Philosophers’ Corner. If Eugenics is the scientifically theory that humans can be improved through selective breeding of population, are we being selected according to who can and cannot climb the ladder?

Answers on a postcard.

Here’s housing ladder from 1904 Surveyor & Municipal & County Engineer

Competition would right matters as regards this, the lowest rung of the housing ladder, as in the highest, so that there would always be some slum-dwellers.

Nothing changes.

growstuff

David49 It really does depend on a number of factors. Mortgage rates are still very low in a historical context and rents (even with expenses and tax) can achieve much higher rates than mortgage interest. Not only that, but there will almost certainly be an increase in the value of the property. It depends whether she need to liquidate the asset in the short term.

If she's in any doubt, this is a case where it would be worthwhile seeing a financial adviser, who will go through all the implications.

I agree.

Vacant property, inherited property, property owned after moving house - good in a rental portfolio, given decent rates and expenses.

Mollygo

David49
I don’t enquire into her finances, but she said at the time, that the rent would help pay her mortgage. She wasn’t a single mum by choice.

That's exactly what a friend of mine did. She has a mortgaged flat in an area where she doesn't want to live. She actually lives in a higher value flat in an area which is more convenient for her. She was able to use the income from the first flat (plus her income from work) when she applied for the second mortgage. Incidentally, that's what my ex did multiple times when he was building up his portfolio.

David49 It really does depend on a number of factors. Mortgage rates are still very low in a historical context and rents (even with expenses and tax) can achieve much higher rates than mortgage interest. Not only that, but there will almost certainly be an increase in the value of the property. It depends whether she need to liquidate the asset in the short term.

If she's in any doubt, this is a case where it would be worthwhile seeing a financial adviser, who will go through all the implications.

David49
I don’t enquire into her finances, but she said at the time, that the rent would help pay her mortgage. She wasn’t a single mum by choice.

No personal ‘offence’ taken Silverbrooks. I know none was meant.

Your comment about the property ladder actually made me reflect on and think differently about the term.

Every day’s a school day

growstuff

David49

Mollygo

I find the terms ‘property portfolio’ and ‘the property is my pension pot’ offensive.

My niece, now a single mum, who’s been working hard at several jobs to pay her mortgage, but none of her jobs include a decent pension.
So when she inherited a property that she decided to rent out to give her a pension, you think that’s wrong?
If she sold it, the money would soon vanish, disappear in taxes etc.
We sold my parent’s house, rather than rent it out, partly because the money needed to be split.
The person who bought it rents it out. I wish we’d kept it.

Personally would have advised her to pay her own mortgage off as first prority that’s always the safest investment and untaxed unless there is a very good reason why not.

It depends what her mortgage rate is and how much return she is receiving for rents. In today's market it probably makes sense to keep the mortgage because it's probably at a lower rate than the rate of return received in rent.

Probably not after she pays tax and other expenses. Especially at todays interest rates

sundowngirl. I asked politely May I? You were not obliged to answer.

I shan't address the remainder of your post as it's full of the usual tropes about the behaviour of young people and assumptiions of what other people may or may not have.

I wasn’t having a personal pop, Lizzie. Sorry if it came across that way. The expression is in common usage. It's often expressed as the first rung so it does suggest something that needs to be climbed.

It made me think of a young couple I met a few years ago at a local meeting about our Neighbourhood Plan. They were new to the area and had just bought their first home on a smart new development under the Help to Buy Scheme. They seemed rather embarrassed that as FTB, they had been able to buy a brand-new, large, four-bedroomed detached house. I’d been along to look at the development just out of interest and discovered that prices were much higher than for similar established houses, far more than one would expect even taking into account new build premium.

That scheme came under a lot of criticism for pushing up prices:

www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive/2024/jun/21/help-to-buy-how-a-disastrous-tory-policy-blew-up-the-housing-market

It was axed in October 2022.

But I suppose the point is that they might still be there if the house they bought met their future needs so no ladder involved.

On a tax related matter this new blog from Tax Justice on the increasing tax gap.

taxjustice.uk/blog/tax-gap-2025-increase-press-release/

David49

Mollygo

I find the terms ‘property portfolio’ and ‘the property is my pension pot’ offensive.

My niece, now a single mum, who’s been working hard at several jobs to pay her mortgage, but none of her jobs include a decent pension.
So when she inherited a property that she decided to rent out to give her a pension, you think that’s wrong?
If she sold it, the money would soon vanish, disappear in taxes etc.
We sold my parent’s house, rather than rent it out, partly because the money needed to be split.
The person who bought it rents it out. I wish we’d kept it.

Personally would have advised her to pay her own mortgage off as first prority that’s always the safest investment and untaxed unless there is a very good reason why not.

It depends what her mortgage rate is and how much return she is receiving for rents. In today's market it probably makes sense to keep the mortgage because it's probably at a lower rate than the rate of return received in rent.

Silverbrooks - Even though we don't need to justify ourselves, this is how we acquired an ex council property.
Back in 1992 my mother-in-law, a long term council tenant bought the flat under the right to buy scheme as she was entitled to do. She stayed there for many years and when she died, my husband and his brother inherited it.
We have really poor pensions, especially my husband and although you are 'offended' the rent did top up our pensions. We were brilliant landlords, we charged below market rent and whenever the tenant needed something doing, we did it immediately.
I find it very offensive to say that renting our property to a well deserving gentleman who would not have any other option but to rent privately, as 'Property Porn"
When we were getting married, we saved really hard to buy our first home, both of us working two jobs, 9-5 at one and 6-10 at another, every day of the week and all weekends. We never went out for a few years and every penny was saved.
I know it is much more difficult these days to 'get on the property ladder' (another supposedly offensive phrase) but some young people have a sense of entitlement, don't want to work or to go without their mobile phones, cars holidays etc.
Lizziedrip, Growstuff and Silverbrooks - I'm pleased to hear that you are not envious of our situation, but you probably have a very nice pension pot which unfortunately we do not

If something is a ladder it doesn't follow you need to climb it.

I have climbed lots of ladders for all sorts of reasons, and have never felt any desire to get to the top of any of them. Just far enough to feel secure and do properly the job I ascended it tto do.

Silverbrooks

I don’t like the term property ladder as it suggests something that has to be climbed.

We need something better to describe the natural progression from one place to another as family needs change. Young person or couple starting out ➡︎ arrival of children ➡︎ changing jobs and so on.

The capital gain is incidental and just a reflection of general inflation over time, supply and demand and other market forces at the time e.g. interest rates.

I do think TV is responsible for encouraging property greed. The schedule are filled with property porn.

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jul/13/property-porn-tv-homes-housing-crisis-uk

Agreed Silverbrooks. The likes of Homes under the Hammer etc have got a lot to answer for!

Take your point about the term ‘property ladder’ but couldn’t think of another way to describe my own particular experience. I agree that every house move doesn’t necessarily have to be a ‘step up’ as the term ‘ladder’ implies.

Of course, for many would be first time buyers the term ‘home ownership’ is now just a pipe dream.

I don’t like the term property ladder as it suggests something that has to be climbed.

We need something better to describe the natural progression from one place to another as family needs change. Young person or couple starting out ➡︎ arrival of children ➡︎ changing jobs and so on.

The capital gain is incidental and just a reflection of general inflation over time, supply and demand and other market forces at the time e.g. interest rates.

I do think TV is responsible for encouraging property greed. The schedule are filled with property porn.

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jul/13/property-porn-tv-homes-housing-crisis-uk

growstuff

No envy here either! I'm a very contented person.

Me too growstuff.

First house bought (as a young couple) in mid 70s; tiny little terraced house with no bathroom. Did it up bit by bit. Turned it into our happy little family home. Sold it (to another young couple actually) in 80s.

Moved up to next rung of property ladder - small semi-detached. Sold it in 90s.

Moved up to next rung - small detached, where we still live, very happily. That’s how the property ladder should work.

My daughter and her husband have done similar with their house moves, even though they could afford to buy a second property and rent it out - they choose not to.

We’ve viewed each house we’ve owned as our family home not a pension pot or cash cow. We’ve made profit on each house sale, enabling us to move gradually up that ladder. That’s been more than enough for us, and I feel sad that many young people today simply won’t ever experience what we’ve experienced.

No reason to feel envious here

Mollygo

^I find the terms ‘property portfolio’ and ‘the property is my pension pot’ offensive.^

My niece, now a single mum, who’s been working hard at several jobs to pay her mortgage, but none of her jobs include a decent pension.
So when she inherited a property that she decided to rent out to give her a pension, you think that’s wrong?
If she sold it, the money would soon vanish, disappear in taxes etc.
We sold my parent’s house, rather than rent it out, partly because the money needed to be split.
The person who bought it rents it out. I wish we’d kept it.

Personally would have advised her to pay her own mortgage off as first prority that’s always the safest investment and untaxed unless there is a very good reason why not.

David49

growstuff

David49

“The Duke of Westminster is the UK's richest landlord - I hardly think he fixes leaky taps himself.”

I don’t think he’s going to be looking for a buy to let mortgage either.

I don't understand the relevance of your last sentence.

However - think about it! It would make a huge difference to the country's economy if the Duke of Westminster sold his property portfolio and invested it in more productive businesses (he won't, of course, because property generates so much money and there's almost no risk).

Exactly the same as your reference to leaky taps

Errr ... not at all!

No envy here either! I'm a very contented person.

Mollygo

^I find the terms ‘property portfolio’ and ‘the property is my pension pot’ offensive.^

My niece, now a single mum, who’s been working hard at several jobs to pay her mortgage, but none of her jobs include a decent pension.
So when she inherited a property that she decided to rent out to give her a pension, you think that’s wrong?
If she sold it, the money would soon vanish, disappear in taxes etc.
We sold my parent’s house, rather than rent it out, partly because the money needed to be split.
The person who bought it rents it out. I wish we’d kept it.

What I think is wrong is that there doesn't appear to be another place where she could invest her money, which would be as safe and give such a high yield, but be of more benefit to society and the economy.

PS. Maybe she should read some of the comments on here - allegedly letting property is hard work and doesn't make the landlord any money. Hmmm ...! (I wonder which is true)

Indeed, LizzieDrip. I am sure many FTB would like the opportunity to buy a long term empty property that they could do up. Back in the 1970s when I was young, that's what a lot of young people did to get started and make their first home. Now they are all bought up by "developers" to make a fast buck.

sundowngirl. There is no envy here.

Of course, there was always a private rental sector but never to the extent that it has grown since Thatcher’s Right to Buy and the consequences of the 2008 financial crash. A global crash that began in the USA becuse people could not afford their mortgages has resulted in some people here owning multiple properties while some cannot afford anything at all. How is that fair?

May I ask, how is it that you own an ex-council flat? Had around 3 million local authority properties not been sold since 1980, there wouldn’t be a need for private landlords to fill the gap and there would be sufficient accommodation for single dwellers in the first place.

41% of ex-local authority properties are now being rented out by private landlords at three or four times social rent often paid for by housing benefis. That is scandalous and profiteering on a grand scale.

I think there is a fair bit of envy from many of these comments

Ha, ha - I was waiting for the ‘envy’ comment.

It’s not about envy, it’s about fairness!

That really has got my blood boiling Silverbrooks. It’s so unfair!

If all the rental properties (many of which are terraced, small semis etc) were put on the property market, young people e.g. first time buyers would have a chance of getting a foot on that, currently elusive, property ladder - owning their own home rather than being locked into the rental trap.

Many owners of multiple properties have benefited from that property ladder in the past - but have now well and truly pulled up the ladder to stop others accessing it

I find the terms ‘property portfolio’ and ‘the property is my pension pot’ offensive.

My niece, now a single mum, who’s been working hard at several jobs to pay her mortgage, but none of her jobs include a decent pension.
So when she inherited a property that she decided to rent out to give her a pension, you think that’s wrong?
If she sold it, the money would soon vanish, disappear in taxes etc.
We sold my parent’s house, rather than rent it out, partly because the money needed to be split.
The person who bought it rents it out. I wish we’d kept it.

growstuff

David49

“The Duke of Westminster is the UK's richest landlord - I hardly think he fixes leaky taps himself.”

I don’t think he’s going to be looking for a buy to let mortgage either.

I don't understand the relevance of your last sentence.

However - think about it! It would make a huge difference to the country's economy if the Duke of Westminster sold his property portfolio and invested it in more productive businesses (he won't, of course, because property generates so much money and there's almost no risk).

Exactly the same as your reference to leaky taps