A growing population in the UK but we have to lose 10% of farmland.

foxie48

The life of the average dairy cow is horrible these days, they are treated as machines and are housed 365 days a year, but it produces cheap milk. Anyone who has tasted milk from grass fed cows bred for the quality of their milk rather than the quantity will appreciate the difference.
Land bought for investment and IHT benefits will follow the money. If it produces a better income producing energy either by growing crops for anaerobic digesters or solar panels then that's what will happen but it should be using the most unproductive land not good arable land. The only people showing a good return on agricultural land are the big landowners who buy land for reasons other than to farm it.

No dairy cows are housed 365 days - FACT

All cows are outdoor for at least part of the year, most have access to grazing for 180 days - all summer, these days they would be having supplementary feed as well as grazing.

Foxie you are talking rubbish, you need to visit a modern dairy farm with an open mind and see just how well it’s done.

Farms bought for investment are arable farms, mostly they are actually managed by family farms that that expanded to very large acreages not “company farms”. Locally there are 3 that are probably over 5000 acres each, however now many investors are not bothering with food production which pays very little, they can make just as much planting bird and butterfly food.

The few “company farms” are shrinking because the cost of agents, managers and hourly paid workers reduces any profit to zero. The family run unit will have 2 or 3 generations as partners, their wives are often working partners too, some driving tractors or tending livestock, some making sense of all the red tape that has to coped with these days.

In terms of "joined up thinking" discussed above, Maizie wrote

"I suspect that should there be any ‘joined up thinking’ involved it would lay the government open to accusations of trying to implement a communist planned economy. "

This would get in the way of whats been discussed before as a possibly valuable move, which is to have a food policy that plans protection of the most productive areas so we don't drop our food production substantially. But that would mean some kind of zoning and going up against the big landowners.

This is an interesting read.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/640f31988fa8f5560a0770ee/Peter_Patrick_Redacted.pdf

No dairy cows are housed 365 days - FACT

Of course. For their own comfort and wellbeing they are housed indoors in winter. How would they feed if the ground is frozen solid or covered in snow, and how would they fare in storms such as we've just had here?

foxie48 Have you ever seen cows being let out in early spring after spending inclement months inside? Like kids being let out of school at the end of term!

The planning application referred to in your link was refused, as was an appeal against the refusal. Emphasis was given to environmental harm. I suspect that with the government’s proposed planning reforms the result today would be different.

Sago

This is an interesting read.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/640f31988fa8f5560a0770ee/Peter_Patrick_Redacted.pdf

I notice the document was March 2023, what has happened to Pelham Farm? I'm not science wise adept enough to know whether what he says is true or not.

Wyllow3

Sago

This is an interesting read.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/640f31988fa8f5560a0770ee/Peter_Patrick_Redacted.pdf

I notice the document was March 2023, what has happened to Pelham Farm? I'm not science wise adept enough to know whether what he says is true or not.

I thought it was an interesting read and, like Wyllow, I wondered what the ultimate result of the application was.

I was intrigued by the concept of 'leaking' electricity and the pedant in me objected to his pluralisation of 'roof', but apart from that he appears to have made some valid points. I do think that there are more appropriate places to put solar panels than all over farmland. But farmland offers the most cost effective option to businesses.

See my post of 10.22 for the outcome.

Allira

^No dairy cows are housed 365 days - FACT^

Of course. For their own comfort and wellbeing they are housed indoors in winter. How would they feed if the ground is frozen solid or covered in snow, and how would they fare in storms such as we've just had here?

foxie48 Have you ever seen cows being let out in early spring after spending inclement months inside? Like kids being let out of school at the end of term!

I wish I was wrong, *Allira but unfortunately I'm not and yes, twenty years ago my property was surrounded by small dairy farms, one of my best friends and her husband ran one. We're on heavy clay here so housing cows before the land got too wet was common practice but there was always an outside area of hard standing so they could interact and be cows. Seeing them go out in the spring was a joy. Of course there are still herds kept like that, the only dairy farmer locally uses that system and I can go to buy milk via a vending machine from his yard. Sadly though the move is towards bigger units and more continuous housing because it produces cheaper milk. Below is a piece from the RSPCA together with a link so you can read the whole information sheet. It's from 2017 so it's a bit behind the times in terms of data and there's been a lot of change in the past 7 years.
"In ‘continuous’ or ‘year-round’ housing systems the herd
will be housed indoors 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
The herd may, however, have access to an outdoor yard
(a ‘loafing area’) and, sometimes, only the milking cows
will be continuously housed with dry cows and/or
youngstock given access to pasture."

www.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494939/7712578/Dairy+Cow+Information+Sheet_+Feb+2017.pdf/6919964d-09aa-c007-7a59-5c743c870c8a?t=1553271692677

Barleyfields

The planning application referred to in your link was refused, as was an appeal against the refusal. Emphasis was given to environmental harm. I suspect that with the government’s proposed planning reforms the result today would be different.

Thank you, yes. I read later other objections to the plan and yes, they were much more along the lines of damage to wildlife, and yes, the new reforms could produce a different result.

foxie48 Apologies.

Well, that's a sad development in this country ☹

I just found that a farmer who owns a "mega-dairy" in Wales claims that:
an indoor system makes the animals easier to manage and provides the best welfare. “Trials have shown that if the facilities and management are correct, the animals choose to stay in the sheds as they have all their requirements for a full and happy life,” he says. “Another advantage of the system is that it provides the buyer with a consistent amount of milk a day.”
He would say that, wouldn't he!

There was opposition to his farm from local people and welfare groups but it was given planing permission anyway.

Another mega-dairy farmer in Wales claims:
“I think we are running an animal-welfare friendly, environmentally friendly business here. If you want to talk statistics, our cows live longer than the national average and our mortality rate for cows is actually much lower than the national average. If I were a cow, I’d want to be here.”

That last sentence is priceless!!

The location of his farm in Carmarthenshire was being kept secret when he was interviewed, for fear of repercussions.

Its not just the debates round use of farmland for solar power that affects out ability to produce food.

The narrow margins in food production are also very much related to finding and being able to pay for people to work in farming

The articles on solar panels, (and re wilding) whilst being very relevant, do tend to give the idea that those are the sole reasons for problems in food production, and they are not.

The agricultural industry has faced enormous problems in recent years, including increased costs of fertilisers etc, labour, pressure from the big supermarkets, and there seems to be one blow after another.

Yet people still expect to see cheap food on the supermarket shelves.

Thanks for the apology, Allira It is very sad, I absolutely hate some of the "modern" farming methods, they are cruel and the farmers I know also hate them but it's difficult to make a profit these days as a small farmer. However, people want cheap food, we're prepared to import it from countries that have very low standards of husbandry and then pack it here so it appears to be British. I'm fortunate that I can afford to pay more for my meat etc so I know exactly how it's reared, where it's slaughtered and who is making a profit, sadly most don't have that luxury.

Here in Normandy the cows are outside and often part of an ecosystem involving cider apples. Of course, France is hugely supportive of small farmers (though you might not think it from the frequent demonstrations) and we have friends who are part of the "peasant farmers" movement. There is a lot of sustainable and organic farming.
Climate change is making life increasingly hard for food growers as one disaster seems to follow another.
We don't have anything like the number of big landowners and obviously the fact that inheritance has to be divided equally between all the children can make it very difficult.
The amount of technology on farms is huge, but there is a co=operative system.
The farmers in our UK family are astonished about how the small farms can survive.
Food is exprnsive and "buy French" is fundamental to life here.

I think French farmers have a history of protest!
British farmers seem to be taking a leaf out of their book recently too.

Has France agreed to sign the EU trade agreement with S American countries? They were threatening not to sign.

We have just had a leaflet through our door about the solar farms planned in our area and found this interesting fact: 35,000 acres of solar farms are in planning in Lincolnshire (54 square miles).

Nandalot

We have just had a leaflet through our door about the solar farms planned in our area and found this interesting fact: 35,000 acres of solar farms are in planning in Lincolnshire (54 square miles).

And just where will all these solar panels be manufactured?

Allira

I think French farmers have a history of protest!
British farmers seem to be taking a leaf out of their book recently too.

Has France agreed to sign the EU trade agreement with S American countries? They were threatening not to sign.

Absolutely they do, but probably not much more than the rest of the population; just that the piles of poo grab the headlines. That's France, the right to protest has been part of life since the Revolution.
We frequently smugly sail past the queues for petrol and diesel in our electric car. 😂
I can't find any updates on the South American deal since November.
I think the strength of feeling for rural France is also because lifelong town and city dwellers have inherited a field or a tiny cottage because of the forced equal division of their parents' estates.
Solar panels are springing up everywhere over outdoor car parks.

It's taken 25 years to reach this stage!
The agreement, which is designed to facilitate trade between the two blocs by lowering tariffs on a range of products, now needs the approval of EU Parliament and a qualified majority of 15 member states.
6/12/24
www.cnbc.com/2024/12/23/why-europes-trade-deal-with-south-america-is-so-controversial.html

Correction
The agreement was signed on 6/12/24, the article was published on 23/12/24

For French Farmers the South America deal is important to their livelihood although the land is owned by widespread family interests large areas are Co-operatively farmed and very efficient. Similar systems in other European countries.

Renewable energy is less important in France because Nuclear generates 85% of electricity add to that hydro and very little carbon to replace.

David49

For French Farmers the South America deal is important to their livelihood although the land is owned by widespread family interests large areas are Co-operatively farmed and very efficient. Similar systems in other European countries.

Renewable energy is less important in France because Nuclear generates 85% of electricity add to that hydro and very little carbon to replace.

Nevertheless David, having lived here for twenty years, I can tell you that the push to renewable energy is very strong in France. Lots of government support for domestic installations, solar panels, and wind turbines (which I can see from my window).
From what I read in the French press there is still bitter opposition to the South American deal.
I can't speak for the whole of France, but the co-operatives here are the family farms working together. I wouldn't exactly describe them as widespread family interests; I have a friend who inherited half a field with a pylon in it, so she gets a few euros a year in rent!
Sometimes the siblings agree, but often not. The bungalow over the road has been empty for a year because there are five siblings, farming land and a lot to agree on after the death of the father.

Mamie, what's stopped the French having the same problem as we have here, of wealthy people buying up huge tracts of land for tax relief/investment or to get the grants on it, threatening food production? (except for the minority that are trying to get the best out of the land agriculture wise by large scale savings).