Welby still can’t read the room

Like the Post Office.....Complete control within any establishment breeds corruption. A lot of lessons learnt but whether things will change we can only hope.

fancythat

theworriedwell

fancythat

Though I think has been said before, he did report it.
He didnt follow it up enough.
If I have got that right.

Makes me wonder about my actions. I was helping out at my child's school, doing craft and things with the children. One child said something about what happened at Cubs' camp that rang alarm bells. At the end of the day I went to his form teacher and told her what he said, she said leave it with me and I did. Should I have checked she did her job? Did I do the right thing to report it and trust the other person would do their bit?

A good question.

I would like to think that years ago that would have been enough.[I could have been wrong].

Nowadays, I think we have to follow things up. Sadly.

I worked in schools for many years. I have reported things following the defined protocols and one never hears what the outcome is. I assumed once I'd reported something that I'd be updated but that isn't the case. So many things are handled on a 'Need to know' basis and I sometimes think more teachers need to know about concerns as we are dealing with pupils on a day to day basis, but we are not trusted to know when things are going on in students' lives. We are expected to be proffessionals but have vital information withheld from us making our jobs more difficult!

I think he should have been allowed to thank his staff. He should have done so privately and left. Quietly. His behaviour at the end of his tenure, even if he was falling on his sword, was despicable.

Thanks for the link to the Making report, I'll have a look later.
It will be good if the proposed bill becomes law, but sadly as with anything like this there will be obstructive MPs, I remember there were a couple who filibustered when the bill which included up skirting being made illegal and almost scuppered its passage, thankfully it became law. As the dreadful Pelicot case showed the investigation began with a charge of up skirting, it is a gateway to further offences
I was sad to read that former Abp Sentamu has also been implicated in a cover up and that the Bishop.of Newcastle has not allowed him to officiate in her Diocese, he seemed a good man. Maybe one issue is that combining the role of priest and CEO of the church of England is a lot for one person, but a CEO carries the can for failures.
On an individual parish level safeguarding is taken very seriously indeed, these days, and victims are now believed and supported, which was not the case anywhere some years ago some years ago, not just in the church but also in broadcasting, and the police and well basically everywhere.
Hopefully this will improve prevention, and acting on any reporting, and give those in positions of power, from parish level all the way up, a kick up the surplice.
As for the leaving do, I guess if it was a leaving party for those who had worked with him, to thank them a d say goodbye, then it's a bit different to a celebration. His speech back before Christmas was seriously ill judged.
I don't think that there will be a woman archbishop sadly this time round anyway, let's hope that in the future there will be one either in York or Canterbury, many of those trying to make a difference are women, but again, keeping a load of men in order is a big ask

He was right to acknowledge his staff

fancythat

Which I think, personally, is all part of the demise of Christianity in the Country.

We need Leaders who are doing things Biblically correct.

Just to quote what would be biblically correct, Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
......If Welby took the Bible seriously he might not be throwing parties?

I'm glad Canterbury has gone sad that he's not behaved better in his departure Time now for York to go !!

Just to make it clear that I do not condone any failures to report anything which harms other people. Neither do I condone the utterly cloth eared attempt at "humour" in his House of lords farewell speech. He got it wrong. Period.

I do not see why he shouldn't be allowed to say "goodbye" to people who have worked for him over the years. It looked like a small(ish) gathering.

Sarnia

Iam64

Sarnia, black lives do matter. That shouldn’t exclude equality for gay men and lesbians, or indeed women .

The point I was trying to make was the African bishops will not budge on their acceptance of other groups but are loud in their trumpeting of black people. Not acceptable in my book. I had hoped that the next Archbishop of Canterbury would be a woman but clearly the Church are still wearing their misogynistic, dinosaur specs.

I also wish that the next Archbishop would be a woman.. The only ones with integrity in this whole sorry mess.. I also think the African Bishops need challenging and being brought into line with their very backward views.. But maybe only a woman could do that..

Cotterell should go too.

Esmay

I think that Welby has brazoned it out until the very end .

agreed...

I think that Welby has brazoned it out until the very end .

Iam64

Sarnia, black lives do matter. That shouldn’t exclude equality for gay men and lesbians, or indeed women .

The point I was trying to make was the African bishops will not budge on their acceptance of other groups but are loud in their trumpeting of black people. Not acceptable in my book. I had hoped that the next Archbishop of Canterbury would be a woman but clearly the Church are still wearing their misogynistic, dinosaur specs.

theworriedwell

OldFrill

This is the problem when people rely on quoting media rather than the actual report, you misinterpretations and misconceptions. I have given the link to the report.
It really isn't relevant that it's "not your church" especially if you choose to comment on it.
The survivors/victims remain traumatised by the refusal of the church to effectively act on the recommendations of the report. To further make comedic speeches and party is absolutely a kick in the teeth to all those that suffered.
Would you not think that if abuse was reported to you on a daily basis you'd start doing something about it? He did nothing.

So you think he should have investigated every case personally? Do you know what is involved? I used to work for the police and it would take a team to properly investigate one case.

It is relevant that is isn't my church as I am making it clear I don't know about the running of the CofE and also I have no bias in it. If you think I'm not allowed to post I suggest you contact gransnet.

Well you obviously know how it is all run if you know he did nothing, apparently he did check it had been reported and maybe he was too trusting.

Are you claiming he covered it up? How did that work, did he tell the people who reported it to him that they must not report it when they were telling him they had?

I've read the report.

So you think he should have investigated every case personally? Do you know what is involved?

Obviously he couldn't investigate everything personally himself.

However, he had a team of people working for him, and, as the buck stopped with him, he should have made sure they kept him updated.
It is so easy now to use reminders on an electronic device and forgetting to chase up progress on something as important as this is unforgivable.

We could even do this years ago with a diary or bring forward system.

He got it all wrong and should have acted sooner. But having got things wrong and having this pointed out to him he should have been able to grasp the seriousness of the issues to the individuals involved - and indeed to the CofE as a whole. I think it is this that he has failed to grasp - he has behaved as though he need not have resigned but had done so to keep people happy/quiet. It has been hard to discern any sense that he really gets what the problem is and why the buck had to stop with him.

A bit of me is aware of his struggles with depression and I understand that during a bad episode he could very well have had impaired judgement or simply have been unable to concentrate properly. But that is what his colleagues are there for - to act on his behalf when he is not well.

The sheer complacency of those at the top is very very worrying. The sense that they do not care or empathise is quite shocking really. Defending one's job above all else is not what one might hope for in someone in that position.

I hope we can avoid getting cross with each other as the consensus is Welby was right to resign. There’s also agreement that his farewell speech, then his farewell party suggest the man either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care about the devastating impact of abuse. Maybe it’s both.

I was considering whether the worst he could be accused of was lack of professional curiosity about the serious allegations allegedly referred but I now believe he didn’t understand or care enough

OldFrill

This is the problem when people rely on quoting media rather than the actual report, you misinterpretations and misconceptions. I have given the link to the report.
It really isn't relevant that it's "not your church" especially if you choose to comment on it.
The survivors/victims remain traumatised by the refusal of the church to effectively act on the recommendations of the report. To further make comedic speeches and party is absolutely a kick in the teeth to all those that suffered.
Would you not think that if abuse was reported to you on a daily basis you'd start doing something about it? He did nothing.

So you think he should have investigated every case personally? Do you know what is involved? I used to work for the police and it would take a team to properly investigate one case.

It is relevant that is isn't my church as I am making it clear I don't know about the running of the CofE and also I have no bias in it. If you think I'm not allowed to post I suggest you contact gransnet.

Well you obviously know how it is all run if you know he did nothing, apparently he did check it had been reported and maybe he was too trusting.

Are you claiming he covered it up? How did that work, did he tell the people who reported it to him that they must not report it when they were telling him they had?

I find any defence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, incomprehensible. Read the report then say "he didn't know" he is the liar. As l said earlier, the police are investigating to see if criminal charges should be brought. I hold out no hope. Anyway... On with the party - middle finger to the victims.

This is the problem when people rely on quoting media rather than the actual report, you misinterpretations and misconceptions. I have given the link to the report.
It really isn't relevant that it's "not your church" especially if you choose to comment on it.
The survivors/victims remain traumatised by the refusal of the church to effectively act on the recommendations of the report. To further make comedic speeches and party is absolutely a kick in the teeth to all those that suffered.
Would you not think that if abuse was reported to you on a daily basis you'd start doing something about it? He did nothing.

OldFrill

theworriedwell

I would assume he's saying thank you to people he has worked with, doesn't seem a big issue to me. I'm sure people have worked hard and I think most bosses have some sort of do to say goodbye and thank people, I'm sure he has probably done good things (I don't know as I'm not CofE and don't follow what goes on in the CofE) so if he reported it and relied on others to do their jobs it isn't ideal but it isn't the same as covering it up.

He resigned (after being forced to) as he was criticised in the Makin Report for covering up child abuse. No he didn't report it. No he didn't check it had been reported. He, and others, covered it up. The consequences were scores more children/young men were abused. He laughed it off in his farewell speech in the HoL and he's thrown a party. I find it all a very big, inexcusable, issue.

OK I read above he had reported it. I have just read a timeline in The Independent www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/justin-welby-archbishop-canterbury-archbishop-of-canterbury-africa-b2645880.html

It says he was told about the allegations in 2013 and was assured the police and local authority were informed. Maybe he should have followed it up but in another report he states he received reports of abuse on a daily basis, I assume he also dealt with other things so is it possible he wasn't covering anything up but was trusting what others told him? So maybe he was lax but it doesn't seem fair on that evidence to say he covered it up.

From what I can see there were people in the CofE who covered it up but I don't see evidence it was him.

That is quite apart from the fact that as the head of any organisation you do have vicarious responsibility for what happens in that organisation so I don't think it was wrong that he resigned.

I think it is fair to say scores of young men and children were abused because he trusted the people who were lying to him. Who are they and are they being held responsible?

As I said not my church and I have no idea who lied to JW and they aren't named in the timeline although job titles are given so some people must know.

fancythat

theworriedwell

fancythat

Though I think has been said before, he did report it.
He didnt follow it up enough.
If I have got that right.

Makes me wonder about my actions. I was helping out at my child's school, doing craft and things with the children. One child said something about what happened at Cubs' camp that rang alarm bells. At the end of the day I went to his form teacher and told her what he said, she said leave it with me and I did. Should I have checked she did her job? Did I do the right thing to report it and trust the other person would do their bit?

A good question.

I would like to think that years ago that would have been enough.[I could have been wrong].

Nowadays, I think we have to follow things up. Sadly.

I suppose it was about 25 years ago. I don't know if things are better or worse.

Sarnia, black lives do matter. That shouldn’t exclude equality for gay men and lesbians, or indeed women .

Such a shame. I never trusted JW once he started to interfere in politics. He forgot who he was…
The ABY doesn’t seem much better. It’s really sad.
I still maintain that it’s not religion that is bad, just the people practicing it who are/can be.

The Makin report can be downloaded and read from the link on the CoE website. For anyone who has read it Welby's behaviour ( and the lack of other resignations) is inexcusable. This is not the only abuse covered up by the CofE, they are all horrific.
www.churchofengland.org/media/press-releases/independent-review-churchs-handling-smyth-case-published