NOTRE DAME [title edited by GNHQ at OP's request]

That is stunning Allira.. Are the gardens stunning and open during the growing season?

Allira 👌

Jaberwok

The French are still proud of their nation. We as a country are not. For years now we've had it dinned into us what an awful nation we are and that our past is something to be abjectly ashamed of to the point that we should be hanging out heads and constantly apologising , and regretting that we still exist. Of course we have wonderful craftspeople perfectly able to restore our heritage, but at the same time we have to apologise for heritage being there in the first place!

And not a little of the “dinning” has appeared on sites such as ours
Talking of restoration though, what about Windsor Castle?
Beautifully done.

Must say Notre Dame and other French Cathedral have always left me 'a bit cold'- too dark, too decorated. I've visited Notre Dame several times, and it never moved me. Looking forwards to visiting again next year, hopefully much lighter now.

Take me to York Minster, Peterborough, Ely, Lincoln, and many others in England, and the best for me Durham - and my heart soars, even though I am not at all religious.

Windsor Castle was beautifully done, but.I don't think it's P.C to feel proud of it!? Or any of our great buildings come to that.

Of course we have wonderful craftspeople perfectly able to restore our heritage, but at the same time we have to apologise for heritage being there in the first place.

That's getting close to how it is , Jaberwok.
France will always remain a proud nation. It's in their very French blood.
They're not daft, they know the state cannot afford to foot the bill for the maintenance of every French monument through public funds alone, so there's a move to join with private investors to preserve the French heritage for years to come.

I'm not sure British people are quite as keen, maybe they are, maybe they're not. The French are certainly more pragmatic. They recognise that reducing time frames is of importance in terms of generating tourist income too, so they tend to get the jobs done while we're still going through the processes. That's why the châteaux of the Loire are getting a new modern lease of life for future posterity, without destroying any of their past history and culture.

I'm guessing quite a bit of our lottery money goes towards heritage projects, but we need to proudly shout about their provenance and history more in order to preserve what we have here before it is lost.

It’s not in the British nature to proudly shout about anything British (mores the pity.)

Surely we could be allowed to be quietly satisfied? but I think even this would be disapproved of.

so they tend to get the jobs done while we're still going through the processes. What evidence have you for saying that?

Jaberwok

Surely we could be allowed to be quietly satisfied? but I think even this would be disapproved of.

Oreo It’s not in the British nature to proudly shout about anything British (mores the pity.)

Strange, isn't it.
We'd be accused of being jingoistic, whereas the French are patriotic.

I'm guessing quite a bit of our lottery money goes towards heritage projects, but we need to proudly shout about their provenance and history more in order to preserve what we have here before it is lost.
Yes, we should and the Lottery Heritage Fund is a good initiative.

It seems that there is an impasse at the moment, let's hope they resolve this and get on with the restoration asap.

The initial procurement process set up by the GSA had to be abandoned after a series of bungles meant that it tried to award first place to two different architects, leaving itself millions out of pocket and no closer to getting any work done. Since then, the school has been stuck in arbitration with its insurers, and while it has started a new procurement process, the commencement of any work seems a long way off.

www.apollo-magazine.com/glasgow-school-art-fire-rebuilding-saga/#:~:text=Mackintosh's%20building%20has%20been%20transformed,the%20remains%20to%20dry%20out.

One of the favourite French programme is about an English couple who restores Châteaux and Grand Houses, with great taste. The French also really admire the work of the National Trust and English Heritage, and say exactly the same about the English, but t'other way round, of how great we are at restoration and proud of our heritage. What nonsense Jberwork about 'having to apologise for heritage being there in the first place'! Any Heritage built on the slave trade is also put back into context in France and other places in the world.

It is totally possible to be proud of one's heritage, and yet question some aspects of it- and not be jingoistic.

Greyduster

^so they tend to get the jobs done while we're still going through the processes^. What evidence have you for saying that?

Without boring the socks off everyone with my interest in historical buildings, my observations were based on the following example.
A château in Angers, western France, I visited this year, had 8 towers and the ramparts restored, plus the drainage and waterproofing etc. The guide told us a grant was given after covid, part of the France Relance project, and works were finished in just over 2 years.
I'm comparing that with the restoration of Drogo Castle near me here which has taken since 2006 to restore, on and off with stops and starts for various reasons.
The French do admire the work of our NT and English Heritage, but for me France wins hand down on architecture and artistry in their buildings. And of course, France's number is far greater in their much larger country with, for example, double the number of cathedrals, and over 40,000 châteaux.

Drogo Castle is a bit of a special case- privately and badly built, and not that old either.

As said, nothing in France like English Heritage or NT, and the French really admire the renovations done all other France by the British, with great taste- unlike many of the French renos with plastic doors and windows. Etc.

As said, nothing in France like English Heritage or NT, and the French really admire the renovations done all other France by the British, with great taste- unlike many of the French renos with plastic doors and windows.
Yes, the French might admire the renovations done by the anglais on houses but my friend an estate agent there says they won't buy them for numerous reasons! 😆

Presumably Historic Environment Scotland (HES) cares for many historic sites in Scotland, the equivalent to English Heritage and Cadw. Do they get any grants from Governments or are they reliant on fundraising and the Lottery Fund?

escaped

Notre Dame in Paris belongs to the state, and the speed of the restoration was down to Macron's mobilisation of craftsmen. I believe trades like stone carving have seen a big increase in apprenticeships as a result of all the publicity. In France, most skilled trades are passed down in families through the generations, and there is a real sense of national pride. I'm sure we have similar experts who could do the job here, but we seem to lack the passion and commitment.

I remember when the tower of the cathedral at Bury St Edmunds was completed back in the noughties and there were many complaints about the use of public money. However, £2m was left to the cathedral by an architect who worked on in the latter part of the 20thC plus lottery money.

English stonemasons may well have worked on Notre Dame. I have read of other projects in France where they have been used.

Jaberwok

The French are still proud of their nation. We as a country are not. For years now we've had it dinned into us what an awful nation we are and that our past is something to be abjectly ashamed of to the point that we should be hanging out heads and constantly apologising , and regretting that we still exist. Of course we have wonderful craftspeople perfectly able to restore our heritage, but at the same time we have to apologise for heritage being there in the first place!

You're right - the French are very proud of their nation. I think that they had brilliant artists, composers and writers in the 19th and early to mid 20th centuries. I don't now about contemporary composers and writers but their art is

I know nothing about Scotland, but I read this piece with interest.......

InScotland, Colin Tennant, the Head of Technical Conservation for Historic Environment Scotland, feels that traditional building skills are at a crisis point. He says, “If we had a fire like Notre Dame, we would probably struggle to find structural carpenters that could reconstruct places like the Great Hall at Stirling or Edinburgh Castle.“

Sorry - hit the wrong key -

their art is not very good. When we visit a town we look at the galleries which are usually full of stuff that I would not want to buy.

escaped

I know nothing about Scotland, but I read this piece with interest.......

^InScotland, Colin Tennant, the Head of Technical Conservation for Historic Environment Scotland, feels that traditional building skills are at a crisis point. He says, “If we had a fire like Notre Dame, we would probably struggle to find structural carpenters that could reconstruct places like the Great Hall at Stirling or Edinburgh Castle.“^

Part of the reason for this is the emphasis on academic training to the detriment of more craft based courses.

The UK has been very good at design - from jewellery to cars to fashion etc. At one time many of the designers working in European car manufacturers came from the RCA.

The trouble with 20th/21st century art, digressing here, is that people often don't like it because they don't recognise it. It needs to wait a century or so to become "traditional." I'm much more admiring of say Monet or Gaugin styles and less comfortable with the very new stuff. Weird.

Dinahmo

escaped

I know nothing about Scotland, but I read this piece with interest.......

^InScotland, Colin Tennant, the Head of Technical Conservation for Historic Environment Scotland, feels that traditional building skills are at a crisis point. He says, “If we had a fire like Notre Dame, we would probably struggle to find structural carpenters that could reconstruct places like the Great Hall at Stirling or Edinburgh Castle.“^

Part of the reason for this is the emphasis on academic training to the detriment of more craft based courses.

The UK has been very good at design - from jewellery to cars to fashion etc. At one time many of the designers working in European car manufacturers came from the RCA.

Yes, indeed.
In France, there is widespread appreciation of traditional building skills. They train apprentices in a range of disciplines. It's a way of life for people there.

English stonemasons may well have worked on Notre Dame. I have read of other projects in France where they have been used. We certainly offered them, along with all manner of other expertise such as archaeologists, conservators, and craftspeople to help with the restoration. Their expertise included remote surveying, conservation engineering, and wall-painting amongst other things. Whether the French saw fit to avail themselves is another matter. In a catastrophe of that scale you need all the help you can get.