Israel

Did anyone watch State of Rage on ch 4 on Sunday evening.?
Children on both sides of the conflict talking about their experiences living on the West Bank.

Iam64

What’s happening is beyond words. 🙏🏽

Yes, on both sides.

I’m not pro/Palestine nor anti Israel.

I’m anti war, praying for a ceasefire here and on all other war torn countries.

I don’t wish to see a single death more!

Naive, yes, but still heartfelt.

Big thanks to Phillipa60 for her honesty and perspective.

GrannyGravy13

Philippa60 I hope your GC are safe.

I know Israel is fighting terrorism, the terrorists are cowards hiding amongst the innocents.

Keep safe 🙏🏻

Thank you so much for caring, GrannyGravy13, my daughter received wattsapp messages from the kids themselves or from their teachers, they are all OK.
We are living through surreal times

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

Philippa60 I hope your GC are safe.

I know Israel is fighting terrorism, the terrorists are cowards hiding amongst the innocents.

Keep safe 🙏🏻

Wyllow3

From the river to the sea -

"The phrase was also used by the Israeli ruling Likud party as part of their 1977 election manifesto which stated "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."[11][12][13]

This slogan was repeated by Menachem Begin.[42] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians, like Gideon Sa'ar and also Uri Ariel of The Jewish Home.

In 2014 Ariel said, "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."

[3] The phrase has been used by the Israeli prime minister, Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, in speeches.[17] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians.[3]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%20phrase%20was%20also%20used,was%20repeated%20by%20Menachem%20Begin.

I don't think all Israeli citizens believe this, btw, but it has to be pointed out its a POV held by opposing points of view, not just Hamas or on marches chanting.

Wyllow3 let me explain.
When the people at Palestinian marches shout "from the river to the sea" they mean that Israel should cease to exist.
By the way, ask most of those chanting this on US or UK campuses "which river, which sea?" and they have no clue!

No Israelis chant this.

The phrases you quote refer to Israel saying that there can be no other sovereign state between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean.
That does not mean they want to murder the Arabs!
It means that a) the Arabs HAVE a Palestinian state already which is Jordan, AND b) the Palestinians do live in this area and have largely civilian self rule.
What Israel will not allow is for them to have military capability (i.e. sovereignty) - can you just imagine how that would look????

Thank you, lixy and all.
Just imagine this, half an hour ago the sirens went off in my town (about 20km north of Tel-Aviv).
No military sites here.
A purely residential peaceful town.
Missiles from Lebanon fired at us!
We ran to our shelter, but if you will, imagine my daughter who has 4 children, each in different schools...
Waiting to hear from them or the teachers that all the kids are safe, just sitting alone in her safe room, scared to death for her babies.
What Israel is doing in Lebanon is removing terrorist infrastructure aimed at us. Israel is NOT targeting civilians. On the contrary, the IDF gives ample warning for civilians to temporarily leave the area. They have been mistreated for decades by the terrorists using them as human shields, locating their missiles in people's homes FFS!!!!
I truly hope my friends here on Gransnet can see the difference.
And at the same time, my pulse still racing from this last siren and worrying about my grandkids, all is wish for is peace, for Israel to be allowed to live within its borders, and for no innocent people to be harmed.

Philippa60 good to see you posting, and great to have your perspective in the debate. I too believe that Israel is fighting for far more than a bit of rocky mountainside.
I will be thinking of you along with my own family in Israel.

What’s happening is beyond words. 🙏🏽

Wyllow3

From the river to the sea -

"The phrase was also used by the Israeli ruling Likud party as part of their 1977 election manifesto which stated "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."[11][12][13]

This slogan was repeated by Menachem Begin.[42] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians, like Gideon Sa'ar and also Uri Ariel of The Jewish Home.

In 2014 Ariel said, "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."

[3] The phrase has been used by the Israeli prime minister, Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, in speeches.[17] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians.[3]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%20phrase%20was%20also%20used,was%20repeated%20by%20Menachem%20Begin.

I don't think all Israeli citizens believe this, btw, but it has to be pointed out its a POV held by opposing points of view, not just Hamas or on marches chanting.

Good points.
Thoughts are with the people of Lebanon right now.
No words.

maddyfour

Reckarie
I echo your sentiments. Good luck to those who take on evil terrorists.

maddyfour 💐

Reckarie
I echo your sentiments. Good luck to those who take on evil terrorists.

Oreo

Well said Philippa60
I sometimes think ‘can I be bothered’ to constantly refute all the pro Palestinian and even at times it seems pro anyone else except Israel comments on here, but it’s important to at least try.

Fabulous to hear from you, Philippa60 and Oreo

As I've said before I'm incredulous at those who are pro Palestinian.

Israel are taking on these evil terrorists.

And good luck to them

From the river to the sea -

"The phrase was also used by the Israeli ruling Likud party as part of their 1977 election manifesto which stated "Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."[11][12][13]

This slogan was repeated by Menachem Begin.[42] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians, like Gideon Sa'ar and also Uri Ariel of The Jewish Home.

In 2014 Ariel said, "Between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea there will be only one state, which is Israel."

[3] The phrase has been used by the Israeli prime minister, Likud's Benjamin Netanyahu, in speeches.[17] Similar wording has also been used more recently by other Israeli politicians.[3]"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#:~:text=The%20phrase%20was%20also%20used,was%20repeated%20by%20Menachem%20Begin.

I don't think all Israeli citizens believe this, btw, but it has to be pointed out its a POV held by opposing points of view, not just Hamas or on marches chanting.

It is so good to hear from someone who actually lives in Israel. So thank you Philippa60 for your informed and reasonable summaries. I can’t see a solution to the conflict at this stage and people marching around and flying Palestinian flags in Western countries don’t help. It disgusts me to hear the chant
‘ from the river to the sea’, which some uni students and others go round spouting. Do they have any idea of the type of life they would lead under Hamas rule ? I think not.

I wonder what the next few days are likely to bring? Seems that Netanyahu has been preparing very well to take out the top commanders in Hezbelloh. Can’t help thinking that there will always be a steady stream of ready replacements even though experience is limited in the top roles. But there is a gap where Netanyahu can strike. I don’t see any end in sight though but assume the next few weeks will be very serious in this war.

Philippa60

I wish there was a "Like" button here on Gransnet....
Thank you FriedGreenTomatoes2 (love the name!)

There is a Thank you button on Mumsnet and only the poster being thanked can see it so it doesn't become a popularity contest.
It seems like a good idea, I don't know why GN can't have one.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I wish there was a "Like" button here on Gransnet....
Thank you FriedGreenTomatoes2 (love the name!)

Another here Phillippa60 who thanks you for your measured and informed posts. I keep you, your family and community in my thoughts. These are scary times. Fighting terrorists must be the stuff of nightmares. Hezbollah hide amongst and behind civilians - using them as human shields with their tunnels below schools and hospitals. This much we DO know and all right minded people abhor.

Stay safe. x

David49

Philippa60

Exactly right, maddyfour. We have shelters, safe rooms (reinforced) in all homes built more recently. And we have the air defence systems. That's why there are fewer casualties here. But huge damage to property. Interesting that is not shown.
Yes, Israel targeted Hizbollah HQ which was purposely located underneath a residential building.
Gloves are off now and Israel successfully eliminated Nasrallah, head of Hizbollah.
Not sure if you've seen but people in Syria are handing out sweets and cakes celebrating this - crazy but there you go.

Phillips you seem to live in Israel or at least have family there.

I say to you it would be much easier for the rest of us if it to have more sympathy with Israel if the policy of settling Palestinian land was reversed, give them their land back as part of a settlement. A 2 state policy is not going to work because terrorists would used it as a base to attack what’s left of Israel.

The main protagonists are undoubtedly Hamas and Hezbollah who don’t care how many civilians are killed but they cannot be allowed to win because terrorism will be the rule in surrounding countries.

David49, I am against Israel settling in the west bank, just to be clear. But if Israel returns this territory to the Palestinians and allows them full sovereignty, it will undoubtedly be used as a base against Israel as you wrote and as we know from experience.
At the moment these areas have Palestinian civil rule but Israeli army presence for exactly these reasons.

I can only imagine the desperation and fear that must be felt by a grandparent with four grandchildren nearby whilst rockets are raining down. I know that ordinary Palestinians and Lebanese must feel this fear too. And Ukrainians as Russia wages it’s war against them.
But Ukraine and Israel must defend themselves, as I believe the UK must defend itself if it was ever attacked. I watched the BBC documentary on Thursday night which was terrifying but showed the terrorist attacks on the festival on 07/10 23, all filmed from and by the victims and the terrorists, with some interviews included too. How could Israel not have responded to an attack such as that? I sincerely hope our government would respond in the same way if ever we were attacked in such a way. One can only imagine the horror if such an attack happened at Glastonbury.

Phillipa

Philippa60

Exactly right, maddyfour. We have shelters, safe rooms (reinforced) in all homes built more recently. And we have the air defence systems. That's why there are fewer casualties here. But huge damage to property. Interesting that is not shown.
Yes, Israel targeted Hizbollah HQ which was purposely located underneath a residential building.
Gloves are off now and Israel successfully eliminated Nasrallah, head of Hizbollah.
Not sure if you've seen but people in Syria are handing out sweets and cakes celebrating this - crazy but there you go.

Phillips you seem to live in Israel or at least have family there.

I say to you it would be much easier for the rest of us if it to have more sympathy with Israel if the policy of settling Palestinian land was reversed, give them their land back as part of a settlement. A 2 state policy is not going to work because terrorists would used it as a base to attack what’s left of Israel.

The main protagonists are undoubtedly Hamas and Hezbollah who don’t care how many civilians are killed but they cannot be allowed to win because terrorism will be the rule in surrounding countries.

Oreo

Well said Philippa60
I sometimes think ‘can I be bothered’ to constantly refute all the pro Palestinian and even at times it seems pro anyone else except Israel comments on here, but it’s important to at least try.

Oreo, I feel the same way. Life is so tough that I honestly wonder why I invest energy in this... but on the other hand I do think it is important to try and share my views with anyone who is willing to listen.
There are some on here who have clearly made up their minds about Israel (based on what I don't know...) and I note that don't engage with me.
But to everyone else, including those who want to challenge, ask tough questions - I am very happy to engage