ICJ seeks arrest warrant for Netanyahu and others for war crimes.

I watched it and it was a difficult watch. There will of course be orphans, sadly during war. Whether Palestinian or Israeli (or Ukrainian) children will be scarred by what they have witnessed. The little five year old girl, who is now in Italy receiving treatment, will never forget losing her family, killed in a bomb explosion, nor will the four year old Israeli girl who saw both her parents murdered in front of her and was then taken hostage, and is now released.

What was quite chilling was that the little Palestinian girl declared that her father is now a martyr. Brain washing begins early in Gaza.

Maddyone Not sure of what you are saying in your post. I'm aware that Israeli Arab citizens are full citizens of Israel, however, what is of note is that Israel does not have a constitution nor agreed boundaries. It is, therefore, potentially possible to make laws to change anything, including citizenship etc. Obviously the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank do not have a right to Israeli citizenship and all that brings, so if Israel were to annexe them, as Smotrich and Ben-Givr would like, they would not be given Israeli citizenship.

I think Hamas is enjoying being portrayed as the victim and to my mind that is nearly as heinous as the crimes they committed on 7/10.

Hamas does not care one jot for Palestinian civilians being killed.

Hamas could hand over the remaining live hostages and the bodies of those who are deceased, and enter into cease fire negotiations in good faith.

Unfortunately I cannot see this happening, Israel has walked headlong into the Catch-22 situation set by Hamas.

I hope that this war finishes soon, but I do not think either side is willing to lose face in order for there to be peace.

maddyone

I watched it and it was a difficult watch. There will of course be orphans, sadly during war. Whether Palestinian or Israeli (or Ukrainian) children will be scarred by what they have witnessed. The little five year old girl, who is now in Italy receiving treatment, will never forget losing her family, killed in a bomb explosion, nor will the four year old Israeli girl who saw both her parents murdered in front of her and was then taken hostage, and is now released.

What was quite chilling was that the little Palestinian girl declared that her father is now a martyr. Brain washing begins early in Gaza.

But you see she was correct.

It is a translation of a Palestinian word that describes anyone killed as a result of war amongst other things.

Nothing to do with brainwashing. She could have said “my mum is dead because she was killed by Israel” but she used the word “shahid” instead.

In that case you also saw the 11 year old boy whose parents were shot by the IDF soldiers who then questioned him.
Having an acronym because so many children are injured and orphaned is truly horrific. The little girl is not brainwashed anymore than a child who tells you their dead parent is in heaven. But of course she is a Palestinian child so she is bound to be wrong isn’t she?
Even children are not safe from prejudiced views.

GrannyGravy13

I think Hamas is enjoying being portrayed as the victim and to my mind that is nearly as heinous as the crimes they committed on 7/10.

Hamas does not care one jot for Palestinian civilians being killed.

Hamas could hand over the remaining live hostages and the bodies of those who are deceased, and enter into cease fire negotiations in good faith.

Unfortunately I cannot see this happening, Israel has walked headlong into the Catch-22 situation set by Hamas.

I hope that this war finishes soon, but I do not think either side is willing to lose face in order for there to be peace.

Of course hamas is enjoying the victim status, revelling in it every time another country says anything about Israel.
They can’t be rewarded with a Palestinian State after all they have done, and will do any chance they get.

Hamas terrorists believe if they become martyrs there’ll be virgins waiting for them in Heaven.Says a lot about them doesn’t it, what idiots.

It is clear to me from posts/responses that there are those on here who will always see Hamas and the Palestinian as victims, and as GG says, they enjoy the status of victims. Others see Israel as victims, having been attacked on 07/10 and having 1200 civilians murdered and over 200 abducted as hostages but with no demands being made for their release. Some are now released in exchange for a short ceasefire by both sides.
I cannot, and will not accept that the aggression displayed on 07/10 resulting in those deaths, the awful and horrendous torture of some of those innocent people, and the taking of hostages means that Israel should back off, leave the hostages to their fate, and accept that many more years of missiles, suicide bombers, and random terrorist killings is fine and dandy, it’s all the fault of Israel because they shouldn’t be there anyway according to some.
Israel must do what Israel must do. They will hopefully find the hostages, kill many more Hamas terrorists, and then be in a position to negotiate. If Hamas cared even half as much about their civilians as many of us do, they would have come to the negotiating table with reasonable expectations a long time ago.

What troubles me is....I don't see a way forward without a two state solution with State boundaries.

As of May 2024, the State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 145 of the 193 member states of the United Nations. It has been a non-member observer state of the United Nations General Assembly since November 2012.

Otherwise we have what?

Hamas and the Israeli current regime both claiming rights over the whole area?

maddyone

It is clear to me from posts/responses that there are those on here who will always see Hamas and the Palestinian as victims, and as GG says, they enjoy the status of victims. Others see Israel as victims, having been attacked on 07/10 and having 1200 civilians murdered and over 200 abducted as hostages but with no demands being made for their release. Some are now released in exchange for a short ceasefire by both sides.
I cannot, and will not accept that the aggression displayed on 07/10 resulting in those deaths, the awful and horrendous torture of some of those innocent people, and the taking of hostages means that Israel should back off, leave the hostages to their fate, and accept that many more years of missiles, suicide bombers, and random terrorist killings is fine and dandy, it’s all the fault of Israel because they shouldn’t be there anyway according to some.
Israel must do what Israel must do. They will hopefully find the hostages, kill many more Hamas terrorists, and then be in a position to negotiate. If Hamas cared even half as much about their civilians as many of us do, they would have come to the negotiating table with reasonable expectations a long time ago.

Hamas are not the victims. Palestinian civilians are.
Israel has destroyed homes, hospitals, schools, universities and refugee camps. All with no defeat of Hamas
When will you think they have killed enough Palestinians?

Wyllow if you like reading, read Son of Hamas by Mosab Hassan Yousef. It’s an illuminating read.

What a vile thing to say Glorianny?
I will ask you politely to withdraw that accusation.

I'd read a long summary, maddyone and his conclusions on peace and loving your enemy.

I do see victims both in Israel and Palestine but Hamas activists are not victims. I also think its possible that in both places children are brought up to believe what their parents do, it cuts many ways.

Wyllow3

I do see victims both in Israel and Palestine but Hamas activists are not victims. I also think its possible that in both places children are brought up to believe what their parents do, it cuts many ways.

I agree with you Wyllow. I also see the civilians in both populations as victims, but I do agree, that children brought up in both societies will absorb the views of the adults around them. Both Palestinians and Israelis will have been profoundly affected by this war (aren’t the victims always profoundly affected by war?) and the attitudes engendered by their experiences will undoubtedly be passed down the generations. It was absolutely heartbreaking watching the documentary last night, and it was equally heartbreaking watching the aftermath of 07/10 last year. I also find it heartbreaking when I watch the mothers speaking of their sons and daughters who are being held hostage and I wonder how I would feel and cope in that situation. I’m glad that Italy and Qatar have offered medical treatment and sanctuary to so many injured Palestinian children.
It’s all so sad.

maddyone

What a vile thing to say Glorianny?
I will ask you politely to withdraw that accusation.

What accusation? It was a question
If you believe Israel’s aim is to destroy Hamas presumably you have some idea about how this will be achieved and therefore have some idea about the number of Palestinians that might die in the process?
Or is this in fact just Israel destroying Gaza and no one knows when it will stop. And Hamas will still remain because ideas don’t die in wars people do.

Yes maddyone, it is.

Glorianny

maddyone

What a vile thing to say Glorianny?
I will ask you politely to withdraw that accusation.

What accusation? It was a question
If you believe Israel’s aim is to destroy Hamas presumably you have some idea about how this will be achieved and therefore have some idea about the number of Palestinians that might die in the process?
Or is this in fact just Israel destroying Gaza and no one knows when it will stop. And Hamas will still remain because ideas don’t die in wars people do.

Why would any poster on a forum know the things you’re asking? Are they part of the Israeli war cabinet?!
Of course the aim is to destroy as many hamas fighters as possible and get back the hostages taken by these crazy bloodthirsty thugs.

It isn’t a question of knowing it is a question of opinion. If you believe the object is to destroy Hamas and there is obviously a cost in civilian lives happening is there a number you consider it acceptable to kill. Or should the slaughter just go on and on?
I don’t believe Hamas can be destroyed although it may be driven into hiding it will re emerge. I don’t think any civilian deaths are acceptable. And the way civilians are being treated by Israel is completely unacceptable.

And the way Hamas treated Israelis 7th October 2023 and treat the hostages,

We do know there are substantial differences of opinion in terms of "where to go to from now" within the governing coalition of the Israeli government which will shape Gaza's future.

Some want to permanently move Palestinians out of Gaza and settle there.
edition.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl/index.html#

On the other hand Benny Ganz, a centrist member of the war cabinet, spelled out a six-point plan that includes the return of the hostages, ending Hamas' rule, demilitarising the Gaza Strip and establishing an international administration of civilian affairs. It also supports efforts to normalise relations with Saudi Arabia and widen military service to all Israelis.

www.euronews.com/2024/05/18/israels-benny-gantz-sets-june-8-deadline-for-adoption-of-new-gaza-war-plan#:~:text=Gantz%20spelled%20out%20a%20six,military%20service%20to%20all%20Israelis.

Thanks for posting that, Wyllow. I'd read as much in other media including Israeli press. Netanyahu doesn't want the hostages back because it removes his reason from continuing the war which will put him at odds with the far right wingers. Hamas won't release the hostages without a proper permanent ceasefire. It seems like stalemate.

International Administration, I can’t think of any group that would want that poisoned chalice, because it would mean controlling Hamas who just don’t care how many civilians are killed.

Israel will have to police Gaza as they do in The West Bank

Its very complicated.

"Who currently controls the West Bank?
The Palestinian Authority maintains administrative control, and Israel maintains security control of Area B in the West Bank.

Israel retains full security control of Area C and has designated most Area C land as either closed military zones or settlement zoning areas.".

They are pushing the boundaries of Area C land bit by bit. Settlers buy land then apply to Israel for zoning permission.

However the Gaza situation is very different from the West Bank.

In terms of the Israeli government and a stalemate Ganz has set a time limit after which it has say it would withdraw from the alliance unless agreements about "After" have been reached that satisfy his party's guidelines. (outlined in the article, which has a video of Ganz speaking)

I watched the IDF spokesman trying to claim they were not responsible for the fire in the refugee camp. None of the weapons they used could cause this he claimed. Does the man think we are all idiots? Anyone knows that just one bullet fired into an area where people are using open fires, stoves or oil based lamps has th potential to cause a major fire. Maybe none of the arms on their own could do such damage in some areas but they certainly could in that place.