Prayer ban at Katharine Birbalsingh’s school is lawful, High Court rules .

As the head said. She had a choice she didn’t have to attend her school.

So, TS, is it acceptable for a parent to choose to send their child to a particular school and then seek to change its ethos from the inside? Other schools which permit prayer during school hours are available. Yet this mother intends to send another child to this school and seek to mount further challenges; at the expense of the taxpayer agin?

Why question why some parents send their children to this school TS, rather than question why this parent has done so, and plans to send her other child to this school despite not agreeing with the ethos?

I think if the ethos was entirely secular and no mention was ever made of God, there were no celebrations of any festivals or events and all aspects of the curriculum and school life were carefully examined to ensure this was so, I'd have no problem with this being enforced. But this school acknowledges some religious practices. These are not cultural, but religious. And if a Muslim child is expected to sing Carols and recognise Christmas I think permitting them to pray would create some sort of balance.

Because, as I thought I had explained clearly, the school claims to be secular but it is not. To force the singing of Christian songs and to celebrate Christmas while admitting Muslim students but refusing them five minutes a day to pray Zohor is discrimination.

Birbalsingh cannot have it both ways. The High Court decision is wrong in my opinion.

I don’t think this is about religion at all but about Birbalsingh’s dictatorship - about a government darling’s decision that nobody is allowed to question even when she is manifestly wrong.

Michaela School is a social experiment in hot-housing a limited number of students under a totalitarian regime.

As others have already pointed out, the student:staff ration at this school is 12:1. It has only 708 pupils over a seven form entry. Assuming all students take A Levels then that is only 100 pupils per year. Would that all state secondary schools had this luxury. Even the most selective grammar schools, those that top league tables year on year, take more students than this.

The Guardian points out the dangers of this court precedent:

The case could have implications for other state schools in England amid renewed discussion about whether faith and religion should have any role in the education system.

Humanists UK chief executive, Andrew Copson, said: “Today’s high court judgment requires serious thinking from the government about how to protect the child’s freedom of religion or belief while also making sure our education system is fair and inclusive to all. Schools shouldn’t be left alone to deal with this.”

I posted before I saw your latest, Glorianny. I agree with you. It is Birbalsingh's double standards that are at fault here.

Germanshepherdsmum

So, TS, is it acceptable for a parent to choose to send their child to a particular school and then seek to change its ethos from the inside? Other schools which permit prayer during school hours are available. Yet this mother intends to send another child to this school and seek to mount further challenges; at the expense of the taxpayer agin?

No, it is not acceptable.

It is a concerted campaign by those with interests in undermining this school, not just that mother and her children.

What if a group of Christian children obtained places at a Muslim school in England, where the Church of England is Established, and started taking legal action to enforce what they believed to be their rights?

All of this is disrupting to the other pupils at Michaela School who just want to learn.

Teenagers will, however, seize any chance to rebel.

It will be interesting to see if this follows in the workplace.

As others have already pointed out, the student:staff ration at this school is 12:1. It has only 708 pupils over a seven form entry. Assuming all students take A Levels then that is only 100 pupils per year. Would that all state secondary schools had this luxury. Even the most selective grammar schools, those that top league tables year on year, take more students than this.
I would question this quote. I live very close to possibly one of the best grammar schools in the country which tops the league tables year on year. I know a lot about it because my school used to successfully feed pupils into this school every year. I visited it regularly. My son gained a place there.
The roll is around 800 pupils. It used to have an intake of around 120 per year, though this might have gone up a bit now. It teaches through to A level. So sizewise, pretty comparable with Michaela.

I don’t think this is about religion at all but about Birbalsingh’s dictatorship
Spot on, but being a dictator doesn't mean you are necessarily a bad Head. You can be bossy, (like I was), but fair, kind and understanding. I don't know KB to comment, but a good Head has to be a strong Head.

If you think the judgement is wrong, TS, here is the official transcript for you to read and criticise. I haven’t got time to read it atm but will do so later.
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Judgement-R-v-Michaela-Community-Schools-Trust.pdf

Many years ago a devoted Muslim bus driver at Heathrow decided to stop and pray partway through his trip, which of course caused chaos. So he had to be redeployed as a toilet cleaner on the same pay, this enabled him to pray when he wanted to. However his devotion quickly waned and agreed to work normally as a bus driver

I have travelled on buses in Iran and Syria where the bus stopped near a tea house and everyone (except me) went to pray. This is quite a regular thing in rural areas. I just had tea or coffee and waited. But thats the custom of the country. I cant see that going down well here.

Katie59

I didnt realise that schools like this existed anymore, I can only applaud their standards, it sounds like my school half a century ago.

On the contrary, most schools 50 years ago had an “act of worship” which could be an assembly with a “theme/thought for the day” and many also sang a hymn or said a prayer.
More recently I remember attempts by some schools to water the religious element down but still meet the legal requirement.

Section 70 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 stipulates that pupils of community, foundation or voluntary schools in England and Wales must take part in a daily act of Collective Worship, unless they have been explicitly withdrawn by their parents

Yes and 800 is more than 708. That's what I said. Top selective grammar schools take more students that Michaela.

Comprehensives may take around 1,000 students to over 2,000 and have 30 students per class. Walton High in Milton Keynes has 3,000 students.

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/23/136842

Some schools may have a high proportion of students with special educational needs, This adds to the amount of differentiation that teachers need to plan for which all dilutes how much attention can be given to classes of 30 students.

All I am saying is that Michaela does not operate on a level playing field.

Oh dear TinSoldier - what part of secular don’t you get?

RosiesMaw

Katie59

I didnt realise that schools like this existed anymore, I can only applaud their standards, it sounds like my school half a century ago.

On the contrary, most schools 50 years ago had an “act of worship” which could be an assembly with a “theme/thought for the day” and many also sang a hymn or said a prayer.
More recently I remember attempts by some schools to water the religious element down but still meet the legal requirement.

^Section 70 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 stipulates that pupils of community, foundation or voluntary schools in England and Wales must take part in a daily act of Collective Worship, unless they have been explicitly withdrawn by their parents^

As Wales does not have an Established Church I cannot see how a daily act of worship could be enforced.

RosiesMaw

Oh dear TinSoldier - what part of secular don’t you get?

Secular:

Not having any connection to religion.

One could argue that Christmas (despite its name) is regarded as a secular celebration by many in this country.
A time for presents, parties and over-eating.

RosiesMaw

Oh dear TinSoldier - what part of secular don’t you get?

Why the sarcasm?

Secular means of or pertaining to the world. The OED defines is as belonging to the world and its affairs as distinguished from the church and religion. Of education - in modern use often implying the exclusion of religious teaching from education, or from the education provided at the public expense.

In the context of Michaela, we are not talking about religious teaching, we are talking about religious observance in a school which encourages (or according to Birbalsingh - forces) students to sing songs rooted in Christianity - as I have painstakingly described - but will not make provision for Muslim students to take five minutes after midday to pray Zohor. I really cannot see what harm it would do.

I don't agree that it should be done in a playground as it should be done in a quiet place but I do not understand why the school cannot make accommodation for those students who wish to observe it.

Indeed, Callistemon. Christmas is treated by many as a secular holiday but it is foremost a celebration of the birth of Christ. Without that event there would be no Christmas.

Atheists sing Christmas carols

State schools are not secular because by law they must have some form of Christian teaching or prayers.

So I think the court ruling has caused problems tbh.

Anniebach

Atheists sing Christmas carols

Atheists do so in the knowledge that these are religious songs being sung to a God they do not believe in. They would never claim that they were secular, anymore than Christmas is secular. Without a belief in God and Christ neither would exist.

I wonder would anyone claim Hanukkah is a secular celebration or Eid? Is it just Christian practices that are ignored?

Whitewavemark2

or perhaps that was the grounds for the court case - since schools are not currently officially secular there were grounds for challenge.

TinSoldier

Yes and 800 is more than 708. That's what I said. Top selective grammar schools take more students that Michaela.

Comprehensives may take around 1,000 students to over 2,000 and have 30 students per class. Walton High in Milton Keynes has 3,000 students.

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/23/136842

Some schools may have a high proportion of students with special educational needs, This adds to the amount of differentiation that teachers need to plan for which all dilutes how much attention can be given to classes of 30 students.

All I am saying is that Michaela does not operate on a level playing field.

I think you'll find Michaela's capacity is actually 840. On a par with top grammar schools, at least three I know.
I've taught classes of 12 pupils and believe me you need just as much planning and differentiation maybe more, precisely because the children are covering more ground in the allocated time. Bright accelerated learners are classed as special needs too.
But it's not about comparing schools, each setting will pretty much do what's right for them as in the case of Michaela.

The first thing the new head did at my DGS’ primary school was to forbid morning prayers, lunch time prayers and end of day prayers.
He instigated “a period of quiet reflection” once a day whenever it could be fitted in by staff. I never enquired too closely about how that was implemented. Whole school assemblies were about celebrating achievement, together with a meaningful story.
RE lessons taught included all main religions, with speakers-sometimes parents, sometimes ministers coming in to talk about aspects of their faith.
On the other hand, at my DD’s C of E oversubscribed high school, all parents, including non-C of E, were told that if they asked for a place, their children were expected to attend assemblies etc.
That was in the days before parents argued that they had the right to change the rules.

RosiesMaw

Katie59

I didnt realise that schools like this existed anymore, I can only applaud their standards, it sounds like my school half a century ago.

On the contrary, most schools 50 years ago had an “act of worship” which could be an assembly with a “theme/thought for the day” and many also sang a hymn or said a prayer.
More recently I remember attempts by some schools to water the religious element down but still meet the legal requirement.

^Section 70 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 stipulates that pupils of community, foundation or voluntary schools in England and Wales must take part in a daily act of Collective Worship, unless they have been explicitly withdrawn by their parents^

I dont actually remember what we sang at assembly too long ago, I do remember the Catholics going off separately to have their own worship or whatever, so 50 yrs ago religious differences were catered for.
Today there is far more diversity and parents choose which school they prefer but the school policy would be decided by the School Governors in conjunction with the majority of the parents, certainly not by the head teacher alone. A large proportion of the UK population are not religiously active so having a secular school would appeal to many including myself.