Prayer ban at Katharine Birbalsingh’s school is lawful, High Court rules .

Germanshepherdsmum

So, TS, is it acceptable for a parent to choose to send their child to a particular school and then seek to change its ethos from the inside? Other schools which permit prayer during school hours are available. Yet this mother intends to send another child to this school and seek to mount further challenges; at the expense of the taxpayer agin?

No, it is not acceptable.

It is a concerted campaign by those with interests in undermining this school, not just that mother and her children.

What if a group of Christian children obtained places at a Muslim school in England, where the Church of England is Established, and started taking legal action to enforce what they believed to be their rights?

All of this is disrupting to the other pupils at Michaela School who just want to learn.

Teenagers will, however, seize any chance to rebel.

I posted before I saw your latest, Glorianny. I agree with you. It is Birbalsingh's double standards that are at fault here.

Because, as I thought I had explained clearly, the school claims to be secular but it is not. To force the singing of Christian songs and to celebrate Christmas while admitting Muslim students but refusing them five minutes a day to pray Zohor is discrimination.

Birbalsingh cannot have it both ways. The High Court decision is wrong in my opinion.

I don’t think this is about religion at all but about Birbalsingh’s dictatorship - about a government darling’s decision that nobody is allowed to question even when she is manifestly wrong.

Michaela School is a social experiment in hot-housing a limited number of students under a totalitarian regime.

As others have already pointed out, the student:staff ration at this school is 12:1. It has only 708 pupils over a seven form entry. Assuming all students take A Levels then that is only 100 pupils per year. Would that all state secondary schools had this luxury. Even the most selective grammar schools, those that top league tables year on year, take more students than this.

The Guardian points out the dangers of this court precedent:

The case could have implications for other state schools in England amid renewed discussion about whether faith and religion should have any role in the education system.

Humanists UK chief executive, Andrew Copson, said: “Today’s high court judgment requires serious thinking from the government about how to protect the child’s freedom of religion or belief while also making sure our education system is fair and inclusive to all. Schools shouldn’t be left alone to deal with this.”

I think if the ethos was entirely secular and no mention was ever made of God, there were no celebrations of any festivals or events and all aspects of the curriculum and school life were carefully examined to ensure this was so, I'd have no problem with this being enforced. But this school acknowledges some religious practices. These are not cultural, but religious. And if a Muslim child is expected to sing Carols and recognise Christmas I think permitting them to pray would create some sort of balance.

Why question why some parents send their children to this school TS, rather than question why this parent has done so, and plans to send her other child to this school despite not agreeing with the ethos?

So, TS, is it acceptable for a parent to choose to send their child to a particular school and then seek to change its ethos from the inside? Other schools which permit prayer during school hours are available. Yet this mother intends to send another child to this school and seek to mount further challenges; at the expense of the taxpayer agin?

As the head said. She had a choice she didn’t have to attend her school.

@ Callistemon

And sometimes change can only be achieved by being on the inside just as in local or cental government or in student politics. This school isn’t secular whatever Birbalsingh claims. Only when she stops forcing children to sing Jerusulem which is rooted in the Christan Bible and stops celebrating Christmas - which is a mass for Christ - can she say the school is secular.

It would take such a small change to make space for pupils who want to take five minutes in the middle of the day to pray Zohor. One has a right to question why Birbalsingh won’t do so and what harm she thinks it would do if she were to concede. I think the students have every right to protest.

@Joseann

The point is that Birbasingh is on record saying: "I take away their liberty. For integration to happen, it has to be forced. Pupils will sing “God Save the King”, they will sing “Jerusalem”, they will sing “I Vow to Thee My Country.”

What if someone is not a monarchist? What if they are not a Christian? What if they are a pacifist?

As I wrote upthread, Jerusulem is rooted in Christianity. So is I vow to thee, my country.

The latter is based on Cecil Spring Rice’s poem Urbs Dei (Latin for The City of God). He was a diplomat who served as British ambassador to Washington between 1912 and 1917. It was his job to encourage America to join the First World War, which it did in 1917. His poem was used to persuade men to sacrifice their lives for their country in a war that was never theirs. Over 116,000 Americans lost their lives.

British Christian commentators have written that The notion of "vowing" everything to a country, including the sacrifice of one's life for the glorification of nationhood, challenges sensibilities today relying as it does a on a dated military concept of fighting for "King and Country”. (Source Church Times).

Is this hundred year old sentiment really something that needs to be drilled into schoolchildren in the 21C through Birbalsingh’s totalitarian methods?

I question anyway why parents want to send their children to this school not least because of Birbalsingh’s attitudes about girls and STEM and her refusal to include certain technical subjects in the curriculum which she regards as skills rather than knowledge - but that’s another discussion.

www.theguardian.com/education/2022/apr/27/girls-shun-physics-a-level-as-they-dislike-hard-maths-says-social-mobility-head

Katie59

Smileless2012

Parents can choose a school and they should accept the policies of that school, this parent could have chosen a school where religion had a higher profile and this being the case, why was this ever allowed to be taken to court at the expense of the tax payer?

Because the mother was shouting religious discrimination.

Yes. I'm assuming it had to go to court to set a precedent?
In private education anyway, there's a huge book of laws passed, schools versus parents etc., with dates and references. It is referred to a bit like the Bible (not in terms of religion, of course!), and further outcomes are based on those that went before.
I'm no legal expert, someone with more knowledge would need to explain where this case fits in. It's not your average complaint about a school, is it?

Smileless2012

^Parents can choose a school and they should accept the policies of that school, this parent could have chosen a school where religion had a higher profile^ and this being the case, why was this ever allowed to be taken to court at the expense of the tax payer?

Because the mother was shouting religious discrimination.

Parents can choose a school and they should accept the policies of that school, this parent could have chosen a school where religion had a higher profile and this being the case, why was this ever allowed to be taken to court at the expense of the tax payer?

zakouma66

Katie59

I’m pretty sure this issue arose because groups of students decided to “pray” at disruptive times, just to make life difficult for the teachers.
As any teacher knows children will take every opportunity to make life difficult if they can.

Many years ago a devoted Muslim bus driver at Heathrow decided to stop and pray partway through his trip, which of course caused chaos. So he had to be redeployed as a toilet cleaner on the same pay, this enabled him to pray when he wanted to. However his devotion quickly waned and agreed to work normally as a bus driver.

Really?

Yes, really

This school had a non religious policy amongst other rules it had a policy of not allowing groups of more than 4 associating at break times to counter bullying and gang culture.

A group of around 30 were seen kneeling on their blazers in the schoolyard apparently praying, this was a deliberate challenge to the policies of the school. That’s what children do, given the chance they will rebel against authority, not normal behavior at break time.

Parents can choose a school and they should accept the policies of that school, this parent could have chosen a school where religion had a higher profile.

I think most of us are agreed that when a parent chooses a school, they should accept it’s ethos. Clearly this woman didn’t and so the question is why didn’t she choose a different school? It’s been pointed out that there are many other schools in that area.

Joseann

^No place for republicanism, no time for the observance of faith other than that which is based in Christian liturgy, no place for anything other than British patrotism^.
I don't think that is completely true. Doesn't the school allow Muslim girls to wear Islamic garments to show their identity?

The standard headscarves.

Some schools currently allow space to pray, other do not.

Sarnia

Oreo

Urmstongran

Yeah right mum.
You knew the score when you enrolled your daughter. You took a punt here.

This.

And she is planning to send her younger daughter there.

As I posted above, there are many other schools to choose from in Brent, including denominational schools.

Oreo

Urmstongran

Yeah right mum.
You knew the score when you enrolled your daughter. You took a punt here.

This.

And she is planning to send her younger daughter there.

Personally I wouldn’t have anything but secular schools, but that’s my own view on education.It should be inclusive only in everybody being treated the same way.

Iam64

Joseann, I missed that post so apologies from me for misunderstanding

The younger daughter may also be influenced by her mother, older sister and the imam who lives locally and was interviewed on every radio news I heard yesterday

From what I’ve read, the headteacher might not have been my choice. However, parents can be under no illusion about her ethos, school culture etc. my simple view is, get a sought after place for your child and accept school rules and belief system. Otherwise it sounds like me accepting a highly sought after place at our C of E high school, then insisting my children were excused from Assembly or the GCSE RE exam

👍

No place for republicanism, no time for the observance of faith other than that which is based in Christian liturgy, no place for anything other than British patrotism.
I don't think that is completely true. Doesn't the school allow Muslim girls to wear Islamic garments to show their identity?

Iam64

Joseann, I missed that post so apologies from me for misunderstanding

The younger daughter may also be influenced by her mother, older sister and the imam who lives locally and was interviewed on every radio news I heard yesterday

From what I’ve read, the headteacher might not have been my choice. However, parents can be under no illusion about her ethos, school culture etc. my simple view is, get a sought after place for your child and accept school rules and belief system. Otherwise it sounds like me accepting a highly sought after place at our C of E high school, then insisting my children were excused from Assembly or the GCSE RE exam

I agree.
I think it’s the kind of aggressive Muslim religiosity being pushed by some Muslim clerics and parents onto British society and is the thin edge of the wedge if given in to.
It’s a well known secular school and if parents want a religious school they know where to find one.

Callistemon21

^Her school may achieve good exam results what price education if it is delivered under one woman’s totalitarian regime?^

No-one has to choose that school for their daughter.

Other schools are available.

There are 20 secondary schools in the London Borough of Brent.

Parents/guardians of Y6 pupils are given a choice of which secondary school they want their child to attend. You can give a first and second choice.

Her school may achieve good exam results what price education if it is delivered under one woman’s totalitarian regime?

No-one has to choose that school for their daughter.

Other schools are available.

TinSoldier

This comment piece from teacher Nadeine Asbali decribes what is happening much more articulately than I can.

Michaela school will keep its prayer ban – but as a Muslim teacher I know it doesn’t have to be this way.

… it’s worth interrogating why schools like Michaela view their role as being so aggressively secular in the first place.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/michaela-school-prayer-ban-muslim-teacher-religion

My own thoughts:

Birbalsingh is on record saying: "I take away their liberty. For integration to happen, it has to be forced. Pupils will sing “God Save the King”, they will sing “Jerusalem”, they will sing “I Vow to Thee My Country."

Forced integration. No place for republicanism, no time for the observance of faith other than that which is based in Christian liturgy, no place for anything other than British patrotism.

That isn’t inclusive and is certainly not secular.

Birbalsingh claims: There’s a Santa, there’s a Christmas tree, but these are all very secular things. We would never have a nativity play, for instance, we don’t talk about Jesus.

Santa is grounded in the story of Saint Nicholas. A Christmas tree - it’s in the name - a mass for Christ. So much for we don’t “talk” about Jesus unless she is being pedantic and saying that pupils are only singing about Jesus.

Blake’s Jerusalem (although he never called it that) derives from his personal mythology which was based on the Bible. His own illuminated manuscript describes The Sublime of the Bible. The words that immediately preface the verse we know as Jerusalem read …^ our own imaginations - those worlds of eternity in which we shall live forever in Jesus our Lord^. Those that follow the verse are … Would to God that all the Lord’s people were Prophets. Numbers XI.

The holy lamb of God is from from John 1:29. The first lines of Blake’s verse - And did those feet in ancient times … is a reference to the legend that Jesus travelled to England with Joseph of Arimathea - the Jewish man who buried Jesus after the crucifixion. Building Jerusaleum in England’s green and pleasant land draws on Revelations 21:9 where Jesus descends from heaven to establish a New Jerusalem on earth.

The only Muslim prayer that falls within school hours is Zohor. Ideally, it is said between noon and 4:00 pm and can takes as little as five minutes. A Muslim can pray anywhere so long as it is clean and there are facilities for wudu (cleansing). In the working world, breaking for Zohor isn’t always practical but there is a workaround. Qada means fulfilling a duty that was missed due to circumstances. That includes saying prayers that cannot be said at the designated time.

If the school was truly secular then that’s how a pupil could makes up for that missed prayer but Michaela School isn’t secular whatever Birbalsingh claims. She could easily accommodate a space for Zohor as many secular buildings do but is goes against her authoritarianism, her forced integration.

Her school may achieve good exam results what price education if it is delivered under one woman’s totalitarian regime?

Exactly this.

Katie59

I’m pretty sure this issue arose because groups of students decided to “pray” at disruptive times, just to make life difficult for the teachers.
As any teacher knows children will take every opportunity to make life difficult if they can.

Many years ago a devoted Muslim bus driver at Heathrow decided to stop and pray partway through his trip, which of course caused chaos. So he had to be redeployed as a toilet cleaner on the same pay, this enabled him to pray when he wanted to. However his devotion quickly waned and agreed to work normally as a bus driver.

Really?

I’m pretty sure this issue arose because groups of students decided to “pray” at disruptive times, just to make life difficult for the teachers.
As any teacher knows children will take every opportunity to make life difficult if they can.

Many years ago a devoted Muslim bus driver at Heathrow decided to stop and pray partway through his trip, which of course caused chaos. So he had to be redeployed as a toilet cleaner on the same pay, this enabled him to pray when he wanted to. However his devotion quickly waned and agreed to work normally as a bus driver.