Prayer ban at Katharine Birbalsingh’s school is lawful, High Court rules .

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

State schools are not secular because by law they must have some form of Christian teaching or prayers.

So I think the court ruling has caused problems tbh.

I think many ignore that.

Certainly, in some Welsh state schools, there is no mention of any Christian worship.

There are state-funded Muslim, Hindu and Jewish schools in the UK.
I doubt they stick to the rules of Christian worship.

It might be a law but it is a law which is broken daily all over England and Wales.

Whitewavemark2

State schools are not secular because by law they must have some form of Christian teaching or prayers.

So I think the court ruling has caused problems tbh.

I think many ignore that.

Certainly, in some Welsh state schools, there is no mention of any Christian worship.

Indeed, Callistemon. Christmas is treated by many as a secular holiday but it is foremost a celebration of the birth of Christ. Without that event there would be no Christmas.

There would most certainly be a celebration of some kind during the dark months of winter.

25th December is not, in fact, the actual date of Jesus Christ's birth but the Christian church latched the festival on to earlier, pagan ones.

I don’t know if anyone else has waded through the judgement which I posted. I have and I hope that TS, who decided that the court had not come to the right decision, has done so. It is very illuminating and of course contains far more detail than media reports. The reasons behind the school’s ban on ‘prayer rituals’ are clearly set out, and it was essentially brought in to quell some pretty invidious troublemaking, bullying and division, in which the girl was a prime mover, whereas the school’s ethos is to promote tolerance and integration between different faiths, cultures and social standings.

There was no mention by either side of celebrating Christmas, or of singing Jerusalem or anything else which might be considered to have roots in the Christian, or any other religion. The national anthem was said to have been sung each morning, which is surely in keeping with encouraging inclusivity and a national identity.

There is a waiting list for the school so maybe the numbers are kept low for pupil/teacher ratios.
State schools don’t have that option.
I agree about the ? Around analytical/critical thinking skills.

@Joseann

Yes, capacity is 840 but number on roll 708 according to date last changed / confirmed 19 March 2024. 132 places unfilled - running at only 85% capacity which is interesting in itself.

www.get-information-schools.service.gov.uk/Establishments/Establishment/Details/140862

I admit I do not like Birbalsingh. I think she's a dictator with stereotypical, outdated ideas about girls and STEM - all that nonsense about girls not being able to do physics because the maths is too hard. It's why she resigned at social mobility tsar. It's the job of her teachers to teach the girls how to do the maths. I suspect she was worried that poor results would make her school seem less successful.

I dislike the distinction she makes between knowledge and skills - why she won't include GCSE ICT and A/AS Level Computer Science in the curriculum. Both teach analytical and critical thinking skills. I question why she thinks these are unimportant in the 21C.

but the school policy would be decided by the School Governors in conjunction with the majority of the parents, certainly not by the head teacher alone. I don't know exactly when, but I remember reading that 11 out of 12 governors voted for the ban on prayer in the school. That says enough. The trouble is though, how forcibly did KB steer this decision and did the governors actually have all the facts? Governors are not in school every day, it is easy-ish sometimes to present them with information specifically designed to back up the policy you as a Head wish to implement. Yes, KB probably called the tune, but others were in firm agreement.

RosiesMaw

Katie59

I didnt realise that schools like this existed anymore, I can only applaud their standards, it sounds like my school half a century ago.

On the contrary, most schools 50 years ago had an “act of worship” which could be an assembly with a “theme/thought for the day” and many also sang a hymn or said a prayer.
More recently I remember attempts by some schools to water the religious element down but still meet the legal requirement.

^Section 70 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 stipulates that pupils of community, foundation or voluntary schools in England and Wales must take part in a daily act of Collective Worship, unless they have been explicitly withdrawn by their parents^

I dont actually remember what we sang at assembly too long ago, I do remember the Catholics going off separately to have their own worship or whatever, so 50 yrs ago religious differences were catered for.
Today there is far more diversity and parents choose which school they prefer but the school policy would be decided by the School Governors in conjunction with the majority of the parents, certainly not by the head teacher alone. A large proportion of the UK population are not religiously active so having a secular school would appeal to many including myself.

The first thing the new head did at my DGS’ primary school was to forbid morning prayers, lunch time prayers and end of day prayers.
He instigated “a period of quiet reflection” once a day whenever it could be fitted in by staff. I never enquired too closely about how that was implemented. Whole school assemblies were about celebrating achievement, together with a meaningful story.
RE lessons taught included all main religions, with speakers-sometimes parents, sometimes ministers coming in to talk about aspects of their faith.
On the other hand, at my DD’s C of E oversubscribed high school, all parents, including non-C of E, were told that if they asked for a place, their children were expected to attend assemblies etc.
That was in the days before parents argued that they had the right to change the rules.

TinSoldier

Yes and 800 is more than 708. That's what I said. Top selective grammar schools take more students that Michaela.

Comprehensives may take around 1,000 students to over 2,000 and have 30 students per class. Walton High in Milton Keynes has 3,000 students.

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/23/136842

Some schools may have a high proportion of students with special educational needs, This adds to the amount of differentiation that teachers need to plan for which all dilutes how much attention can be given to classes of 30 students.

All I am saying is that Michaela does not operate on a level playing field.

I think you'll find Michaela's capacity is actually 840. On a par with top grammar schools, at least three I know.
I've taught classes of 12 pupils and believe me you need just as much planning and differentiation maybe more, precisely because the children are covering more ground in the allocated time. Bright accelerated learners are classed as special needs too.
But it's not about comparing schools, each setting will pretty much do what's right for them as in the case of Michaela.

Whitewavemark2

or perhaps that was the grounds for the court case - since schools are not currently officially secular there were grounds for challenge.

Anniebach

Atheists sing Christmas carols

Atheists do so in the knowledge that these are religious songs being sung to a God they do not believe in. They would never claim that they were secular, anymore than Christmas is secular. Without a belief in God and Christ neither would exist.

I wonder would anyone claim Hanukkah is a secular celebration or Eid? Is it just Christian practices that are ignored?

State schools are not secular because by law they must have some form of Christian teaching or prayers.

So I think the court ruling has caused problems tbh.

Atheists sing Christmas carols

RosiesMaw

Oh dear TinSoldier - what part of secular don’t you get?

Why the sarcasm?

Secular means of or pertaining to the world. The OED defines is as belonging to the world and its affairs as distinguished from the church and religion. Of education - in modern use often implying the exclusion of religious teaching from education, or from the education provided at the public expense.

In the context of Michaela, we are not talking about religious teaching, we are talking about religious observance in a school which encourages (or according to Birbalsingh - forces) students to sing songs rooted in Christianity - as I have painstakingly described - but will not make provision for Muslim students to take five minutes after midday to pray Zohor. I really cannot see what harm it would do.

I don't agree that it should be done in a playground as it should be done in a quiet place but I do not understand why the school cannot make accommodation for those students who wish to observe it.

Indeed, Callistemon. Christmas is treated by many as a secular holiday but it is foremost a celebration of the birth of Christ. Without that event there would be no Christmas.

RosiesMaw

Oh dear TinSoldier - what part of secular don’t you get?

Secular:

Not having any connection to religion.

One could argue that Christmas (despite its name) is regarded as a secular celebration by many in this country.
A time for presents, parties and over-eating.

RosiesMaw

Katie59

I didnt realise that schools like this existed anymore, I can only applaud their standards, it sounds like my school half a century ago.

On the contrary, most schools 50 years ago had an “act of worship” which could be an assembly with a “theme/thought for the day” and many also sang a hymn or said a prayer.
More recently I remember attempts by some schools to water the religious element down but still meet the legal requirement.

^Section 70 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 stipulates that pupils of community, foundation or voluntary schools in England and Wales must take part in a daily act of Collective Worship, unless they have been explicitly withdrawn by their parents^

As Wales does not have an Established Church I cannot see how a daily act of worship could be enforced.

Oh dear TinSoldier - what part of secular don’t you get?

Yes and 800 is more than 708. That's what I said. Top selective grammar schools take more students that Michaela.

Comprehensives may take around 1,000 students to over 2,000 and have 30 students per class. Walton High in Milton Keynes has 3,000 students.

reports.ofsted.gov.uk/provider/23/136842

Some schools may have a high proportion of students with special educational needs, This adds to the amount of differentiation that teachers need to plan for which all dilutes how much attention can be given to classes of 30 students.

All I am saying is that Michaela does not operate on a level playing field.

Katie59

I didnt realise that schools like this existed anymore, I can only applaud their standards, it sounds like my school half a century ago.

On the contrary, most schools 50 years ago had an “act of worship” which could be an assembly with a “theme/thought for the day” and many also sang a hymn or said a prayer.
More recently I remember attempts by some schools to water the religious element down but still meet the legal requirement.

Section 70 of the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 stipulates that pupils of community, foundation or voluntary schools in England and Wales must take part in a daily act of Collective Worship, unless they have been explicitly withdrawn by their parents

Many years ago a devoted Muslim bus driver at Heathrow decided to stop and pray partway through his trip, which of course caused chaos. So he had to be redeployed as a toilet cleaner on the same pay, this enabled him to pray when he wanted to. However his devotion quickly waned and agreed to work normally as a bus driver

I have travelled on buses in Iran and Syria where the bus stopped near a tea house and everyone (except me) went to pray. This is quite a regular thing in rural areas. I just had tea or coffee and waited. But thats the custom of the country. I cant see that going down well here.

If you think the judgement is wrong, TS, here is the official transcript for you to read and criticise. I haven’t got time to read it atm but will do so later.
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Judgement-R-v-Michaela-Community-Schools-Trust.pdf

I don’t think this is about religion at all but about Birbalsingh’s dictatorship
Spot on, but being a dictator doesn't mean you are necessarily a bad Head. You can be bossy, (like I was), but fair, kind and understanding. I don't know KB to comment, but a good Head has to be a strong Head.

As others have already pointed out, the student:staff ration at this school is 12:1. It has only 708 pupils over a seven form entry. Assuming all students take A Levels then that is only 100 pupils per year. Would that all state secondary schools had this luxury. Even the most selective grammar schools, those that top league tables year on year, take more students than this.
I would question this quote. I live very close to possibly one of the best grammar schools in the country which tops the league tables year on year. I know a lot about it because my school used to successfully feed pupils into this school every year. I visited it regularly. My son gained a place there.
The roll is around 800 pupils. It used to have an intake of around 120 per year, though this might have gone up a bit now. It teaches through to A level. So sizewise, pretty comparable with Michaela.

It will be interesting to see if this follows in the workplace.