Is JK Rowling pushing the boundaries too far?

Just so we know, to whom are you addressing your post of 20:10:34, Glorianny?

So you can cut and paste Glorianny 👏👏👏

I’m amazed that you still refer to it as a “poem” then, but having known it for 50 years perhaps you think of it as such.

You have missed the point though-JK Rowling has done exactly what Niemöller would exhort us to do - spoken out at the drip drip erosion of freedom of expression and the rights of the individual - rights which obtain when they do not harm others -battered or vulnerable women in women-only refuges, prisons, girls and women in changing rooms, or other safe spaces
To criminalise speaking out against such injustices is a virtue-signalling but ultimately retrograde step.

Precisely, RosiesMaw. I'm not going to argue the toss, as it's entirely pointless when someone is so sure of their superiority in all things, but that's my reading too, and, I'm sure, why it is in the Holocaust Museum.

I think that criminalising speaking out about anything is never a good thing. Support for (or tacit acceptance of) the silencing of dissenting voices is exactly what Neimoller was warning against, hence my belief that Glorianny's reading of the poem (much as she is entitled to read it how she chooses) is missing the point entirely.

Glorianny

Apparently I haven't said what rights transpeople are denied.
Well read the thread

Transmen have to comply with any designation you decide. The fact that they have cervixes but don't want to be called women can't be recognised. The fact that they bleed can't be recognised. The fact that they give birth can't be recognised.

The really really weird thing is that you seem to attribute all this to men. There are no men involved as far as your beliefs are concerned. These are women according to your belief in sex. But somehow they have become women who haven't a voice. It's not only weird it's illogical. If you believe all women matter than those transmen are women who matter.

And all this is conducted with some sort of strange evangelical voice which blames tranwomen for everything. And labels anyone who speaks up for transpeople as misogynistic.

I am as always absolutely astounded at the abuse the wrong sort of women get on these threads. And you don't reserve this for transwomen. Transmen and any woman who advocates freedom of expression and consideration are all lined up and condemned.
It's illogical, it's untrue and it's ridiculous.
At least try to get somethings sorted.
If transmen are women why can't they be called what they ask?
and what on earth has that to do with transwomen?

That's really the best you can come up with?

Transmen do all those things because they're female. They're women because the definition of woman is an adult female human. If that is not the definition then perhaps you can give one that isn't circular and nonsensical, so no 'a woman is anybody that feels like a woman'
I agree with you those transmen are women who matter. I don't care how they describe themselves but when official and health documents etc are altered to only describe women in the terms they (a very small minority) choose then that denies other women the terms that have always been used. Additionally we have the media reporting rapes by 'women', transwomen paedophiles (males) with thousands of the worst child sex abuse photos on their computers are described as 'women'. Crime statistics are skewed by this false accounting. I'd say that's getting rights over and above anyone else

Then you come to transwomen, males, who you call women, saying we think they're the wrong sort of women No I think you'll find we don't think they're women at all, they're transwomen ie male. You are saying that women includes women, transmen and transwomen. The word women will cease to have any meaning at all, it will literally mean exactly what the individual decides as if we're in Humpty Dumpty land. Can you not see the ridiculousness? How can you question any interpretation of Niemöller's poem if words don't have defined meanings.

It would seem you have conceded there are no legal rights that transpeople are denied that are afforded to everyone else. Just as we've always said.

To those wondering where I've seen posts claiming transwomen are 'more woman' than real women, and other posts saying most women agree transwomen are women just like them, no difference etc and want them afforded all area access to women's spaces etc then Twitter now X, YouTube, and links from others to TikToc posts. I do believe it's wishful thinking by those that would like it to be the case, but it doesn't stop them saying it, in the hope I suppose it will influence and become true. What is vile to observe is the dreadful treatment of any transman who decides to detransition realising it was a terrible mistake, and not the cure to their mental health problems.

India Willoughby, a racist, homophobic, transwoman goes as far as to say 'she' now tests genetically as female, has a cervix, and is a 'real woman'. I don't watch Big Brother but have seen the video clips of IW being very aggressive and threatening to Amanda Barrie, poking 'her' finger at her while screaming "I am a REAL woman".

Rosie51

Glorianny

Apparently I haven't said what rights transpeople are denied.
Well read the thread

Transmen have to comply with any designation you decide. The fact that they have cervixes but don't want to be called women can't be recognised. The fact that they bleed can't be recognised. The fact that they give birth can't be recognised.

The really really weird thing is that you seem to attribute all this to men. There are no men involved as far as your beliefs are concerned. These are women according to your belief in sex. But somehow they have become women who haven't a voice. It's not only weird it's illogical. If you believe all women matter than those transmen are women who matter.

And all this is conducted with some sort of strange evangelical voice which blames tranwomen for everything. And labels anyone who speaks up for transpeople as misogynistic.

I am as always absolutely astounded at the abuse the wrong sort of women get on these threads. And you don't reserve this for transwomen. Transmen and any woman who advocates freedom of expression and consideration are all lined up and condemned.
It's illogical, it's untrue and it's ridiculous.
At least try to get somethings sorted.
If transmen are women why can't they be called what they ask?
and what on earth has that to do with transwomen?

That's really the best you can come up with?

Transmen do all those things because they're female. They're women because the definition of woman is an adult female human. If that is not the definition then perhaps you can give one that isn't circular and nonsensical, so no 'a woman is anybody that feels like a woman'
I agree with you those transmen are women who matter. I don't care how they describe themselves but when official and health documents etc are altered to only describe women in the terms they (a very small minority) choose then that denies other women the terms that have always been used. Additionally we have the media reporting rapes by 'women', transwomen paedophiles (males) with thousands of the worst child sex abuse photos on their computers are described as 'women'. Crime statistics are skewed by this false accounting. I'd say that's getting rights over and above anyone else

Then you come to transwomen, males, who you call women, saying we think they're the wrong sort of women No I think you'll find we don't think they're women at all, they're transwomen ie male. You are saying that women includes women, transmen and transwomen. The word women will cease to have any meaning at all, it will literally mean exactly what the individual decides as if we're in Humpty Dumpty land. Can you not see the ridiculousness? How can you question any interpretation of Niemöller's poem if words don't have defined meanings.

It would seem you have conceded there are no legal rights that transpeople are denied that are afforded to everyone else. Just as we've always said.

I see as usual the only recourse to a quite reasonable post is to insist that transmen want to impose titles on others. There is no evidence of this. If a woman wants to be called a mother she can be. If guidelines are introduced to explain that some people do not want to be called a mother there is no harm in that. It simply gives a voice to a minority. Which it seems you would deny them.
As I have said many times you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to impose that opinion on others. I'd support your right to be called a mother just as I would support a transman's right to be called a birth giver.
I don't understand why anyone would object to another person being treated with respect.

The rest is the usual rant about transwomen.
What it proves is that regardless of what you profess you actually have a problem with the trans community.
And no matter how you choose to define them a part of that community are women. You should perhaps at least listen to that part. And stop pretending this is solely a male issue.

Glorianny No rant from me. It would be good if your self proclaimed integrity extended to admitting there are no legal rights denied to transpeople that everyone else has. I assume you didn't miss that part of my post so the absence of denial confirms its validity. This whole "trans rights" furore is just manufactured outrage.

I don't think I've ever said this is solely a male issue, I do wish you wouldn't lie, even if just by implication. I'm sure everybody sees through your inaccurate posts. I consider this to be an issue that affects mostly women, but I stand by Simone de Beauvoir's words:
The oppressor would not be so strong if he did not have accomplices amongst the oppressed

Those women that happily throw other women under the bus should be ashamed of themselves. It's easy not to be concerned about males in refuges, prisons etc when you know (or think) darned well you'll never be in that position.

Rosie51

Glorianny No rant from me. It would be good if your self proclaimed integrity extended to admitting there are no legal rights denied to transpeople that everyone else has. I assume you didn't miss that part of my post so the absence of denial confirms its validity. This whole "trans rights" furore is just manufactured outrage.

I don't think I've ever said this is solely a male issue, I do wish you wouldn't lie, even if just by implication. I'm sure everybody sees through your inaccurate posts. I consider this to be an issue that affects mostly women, but I stand by Simone de Beauvoir's words:
The oppressor would not be so strong if he did not have accomplices amongst the oppressed

Those women that happily throw other women under the bus should be ashamed of themselves. It's easy not to be concerned about males in refuges, prisons etc when you know (or think) darned well you'll never be in that position.

I'm not going through the old scenarios again Rosie51 read the old threads if you want to.
Just look at how you speak to me. The things you accuse me of I have never said. How most of the posts to me tell me what I think and what I say and how awful I am.
You may think what you wish.
I'd have a lot more respect for your views though if you could just sort out your problem with transmen and the requests you ignore.
Simone De Beauvoir also said
One is not born, but becomes a woman
Which is actually the basis for a lot of gender studies. She denies that biology makes women weaker and says it is society. I'm with Simone.
I don't want to oppress anyone. I don't want anyone to be oppressed. Can you say the same?

Of course one is not born a woman, one is born a female baby and through life's progression and experiences, that female baby becomes a woman Simone de Beauvoir never once said men become women by uttering magic words! How can someone who enjoyed all the privileges of being male in a patriarchy have a glimmer of what it is to be female? I can't know, as a white woman, what it's like to face the prejudice a black woman may encounter. Or perhaps you, also a white woman (I believe) think you can tell a black woman exactly what that's like? I know you like to speak for black women. My DiL (a mixed race woman) doesn't appreciate your patronising attitude, but she's probably the wrong type of black woman according to you.

I'd have a lot more respect for your views though if you could just sort out your problem with transmen and the requests you ignore. Sorry, what requests have I ignored? Perhaps you could list them? I might be able to respect your views, and your previous incarnation, if you admitted there are no legal rights denied to transpeople that everyone else has. You won't address this, preferring to divert and DARVO.

I've never oppressed a single soul in my life. I don't want to make women frightened to express a view because the trans lobby will have them cancelled. I've never told a rape victim she needs to reframe her trauma. I've never placed a man's wants over a woman's needs. Shame you can't say the same. You do you, a woman who needs to be applauded by men in whatever guise. I'm happy being a woman who loves men, and stands by other women.

Rosie51
Those women that happily throw other women under the bus should be ashamed of themselves. It's easy not to be concerned about males in refuges, prisons etc when you know (or think) darned well you'll never be in that position.
Well put.

Exactly Mollygo. When you know you'll get a private hospital room, aren't a criminal so prison doesn't feature, have supportive family so a women's refuge isn't on the horizon it's easy to be so "inclusive" I've never been in the position of having to claim benefits, the only benefit I've been paid was the automatic family allowance. I can sympathise, from a safe distance, with those who have had to endure the ignominy of laying their lives bare to secure funds for a mere existence, but I can't claim to know what that's like.

Still waiting for what Legal rights transpeople don't enjoy that others do. Is that "The Sound of Silence" I hear?

I'm willing to admit that personal experience has likely affected my views, I wonder if Glorianny has the same honesty, or if she wants to persist with her "holier than thou" stance

Glorianny
^I'd have a lot more respect for your views
though if you could just sort out your problem with transmen and the requests you ignore.^

What problem with transmen?

The problem with TIM relates only to those TIM whose lying, cheating and threats affect or harm females and whose actions reflect badly on other TIM.

Respect from someone who constantly ignores the actions of those TIM and makes sweeping, inaccurate statements about how others feel about all trans, is not high on my wish list.

I'd have a lot more respect for your views though if you could admit the truth about the section of TIM to which I refer and answer the requests you ignore.

^

I didn’t sleep well last night and was pondering this thread when it suddenly dawned on me that whilst we see men who identify as women using social media platforms and invading women only events boasting about their girl dicks whilst wearing revealingly tight clothes with their male genitalia in full prominence.

I have never seen a woman who identifies as a man wearing tight clothes revealing their camel toe whilst boasting about their guy vagina anywhere.

In my opinion this can only be because they respect the gender which they wish to identify as. They wish to blend in and live alongside men, not dominate and make demands.

See the difference…

I knew a transman once Grannygravy and s/he was extremely discreet and never drew any attention to him/herself. Just worked away efficiently and quietly.

Interesting that the GIDs clinic is being closed after failing to properly assess the psychological needs of patients

The behaviour of some transactivists says a psychological or psychiatric assessment would be interesting

Rosie51

I'm willing to admit that personal experience has likely affected my views, I wonder if Glorianny has the same honesty, or if she wants to persist with her "holier than thou" stance

I am sick of asking that too, as well as the following questions that are also ignored. I would have some respect for Glorianny’s views if she even attempted to answer, but it’s as though the numerous posts asking just don’t show up on her screen:
* What does ‘living as a woman’ mean in 2024?
* How can someone know that they are ‘the wrong gender’ when they can’t have been anything other than the sex they were born? A bonus - what is the difference between the wrong gender and the wrong sex?
* What is the difference between a man in a dress (say an actor), a man in drag (a female impersonator) and a transwoman? I understand the definitions, but what is the material difference?
* Are there any circumstances where you ( Glorianny ) would allow your fellow women to chose to be surrounded only by other women, or would you always defer to males and allow them to take that choice from us?
* Are there any other situations in which you ( Glorianny ) would allow people to change their legal position simply by saying that they ‘identify’ into a different social group?

* Finally - are you genuinely unable to grasp that when it comes to language the objections of feminists to words being mangled is not to deny a tiny number of transmen in maternity wards anything, but to prevent the misrepresentation of women and our experiences, in conversation, statistics, policies and in the conceptual awareness that has shaped our sense of self for millennia?

^ I'd support your right to be called a mother just as I would support a transman's right to be called a birth giver.
I don't understand why anyone would object to another person being treated with respect.^

Because to treat the other person with respect in the way you are talking about, it means that some or many would have to lie.

Lying is a sin.
Quite a bad one, as I understand it from the Bible.

People can still treat the person with respect, while not lying.
But can they now, in Scotland, with the new law?

Which is part of the reason many posts back, when I brought up your comment, of oh just say so and so, it is merely words.

To be clear, the new law in Scotland specifically does not remove the ability to cause offence, just aims to prevent ‘stirring up hatred’ whatever that means.

I'd be interested to hear how India Willoughby changed her genes so that she now "tests genetically as female" Any geneticists out there who can expand on that? I know some kinds of gene therapy are available for some conditions, but I didn't think sex change was one of them.

Elegran

I'd be interested to hear how India Willoughby changed her genes so that she now "tests genetically as female" Any geneticists out there who can expand on that? I know some kinds of gene therapy are available for some conditions, but I didn't think sex change was one of them.

Changing sex is still as impossible as it always was, but for some trans identified people lies become truth if you say it often enough. The whole scenario is reminiscent of Tinkerbell, if we all clap hard enough........

Wheniwasyourage

To be clear, the new law in Scotland specifically does not remove the ability to cause offence, just aims to prevent ‘stirring up hatred’ whatever that means.

But if one group demands that another to be complicit in their lie, that in itself has potential for stirring up hatred.

It is possible for a comparatively small sum to buy a patch of land and the right to call yourself a Lord or a Lady. This is one of many websites - www.lordtitles.co.uk/ where for £25 or so you can become Lord John Smith or Lady Mary Brown (or your choice) "Each title pack includes a gold-embossed, personalised title certificate and a legal deed, confirming the new status. Plus five square feet of dedicated land, welcome letter, title crest postcard, colour brochure and presentation folder."

However, you wouldn't succeed in getting your employer to address you as "My Lord" or "My Lady" or have them charged with a hate crime if they failed to do so.