Too many Union Jacks say Labour MP’s !

I’m English and still feel European. My ancestory dna is mostly north west uk, danish, Irish, Scottish and French. Like most Brits, I’m a real mixture.
I’m not ashamed of my heritage. I’m not ashamed of this country’s empire and involvement in the slave trade. I’m pleased it was active in ending its involvement in slave trade. Proud of the Industrial Revolution, despite my Manchester mill work ancestors lived an average age in their late 20’s. Proud that Rochdale just over the moors, had the first workers cooperative and a glorious town hall. Proud of my grandparents who worked 12 hour shifts in the mills and wanted more for their own children.
I find it odd that some people are ashamed of being British or English.

maddyone

Dinahmo
Another poster wrote I’m not proud to be British. I wanted to be European.

You replied Me too.

This exchange clearly shows a lack of knowledge about what/who is European.
Europe is a geographical area. The EU is a political construct.

My opinion only but it’s sad that British people ^don’t want to be British.^

I agree.
Mind you how many people feel European first ( in any European country) not many I bet.
It’s something certain people say as it sounds on the side of the EU and they can’t forgive British people for voting leave.

Mollygo

Maddyone, I wonder which bit of British they don’t want to be and what their contribution to being British is?

I've never quite understood the "I'm ashamed to be British" trope.

Go to any other European nation and there will be those who are disillusioned either with their government or the behaviour of some of the people in that country. I wonder if they go around saying "I don't want to be xyz" (whatever the nationality is)?

Or maybe it's a 'British thing' to say you don't want to be British?

When British hooligans on holiday used to behave badly abroad- particularly in Spain - it made me cringe, but I never felt I had to be ashamed on their behalf. Anyway, you don't need to make a study of it to observe that just about all nations have their share of troublemakers.

maddyone

So how does that work with regard to the Palestinian marches? Nearly everyone holding a flag that is not the flag of the UK, but instead holding the flag of Palestine. Does that mean that the holders of these flags, when marching in British cities, are declaring their allegiance to a country/state/ ideology/ way of life that is not the one of the country they are living in?

I don't know 'how it works' maddyone having, in my youth, been on marches and demonstrations relating to 'events' in other countries without feeling it necessary to show support by waving their national flag around.

At a guess I'd say some are of Palestinian heritage, others Muslim, yet others who are neither but feel that's how you show solidarity - and I'd also take a betting chance that there are those who are anti-Semitic among them, which the chanting that's been heard clearly indicates anyway, and which rather supports my point - that the a flag can be used as a 'weapon' to intimidate.

I'm not a flag-waving type of person, though I have joined in commemorative occasions with Union Jack bunting - in the spirit of the occasion.

I don't know what you expect me to justify - any flag can be used as a homage or as a means to intimidate others, which was my point.

Maddyone, I wonder which bit of British they don’t want to be and what their contribution to being British is?

Dinahmo
Another poster wrote I’m not proud to be British. I wanted to be European.

You replied Me too.

This exchange clearly shows a lack of knowledge about what/who is European.
Europe is a geographical area. The EU is a political construct.

My opinion only but it’s sad that British people don’t want to be British.

maddyone

Dinahmo
I believe you live in France.
You are European because you are (I think) British, not because you live in France. Not at any time because we were in the EU. Europe is a continent and Britain is part of that continent. So is Russia, so is Albania, so is Montenegro, so is Moldova, and also a number of other countries. The EU is a political organisation. nothing to do with what or who is European, because Europe is defined by geography not politics. I’m surprised this still has to be explained eight years on.

I did not mention the EU and I don't need your explanation.

For many years, as long as I can remember, I have thought of myself as European first, British second and English third.

I have always been interested in history, particularly the relationship between England and France. I live in what was the Duchy of Aquitaine which was an English possession for nearly 300 years.

I am surrounded by that history as well as more recent history. There is even a cycle route named after Lawrence of Arabia (it passes through my village). Outside a nearby village there is a site where the Germans massacred a group of young resistance fighters. A number were also captured and taken to concentration camps and 3 escaped. There is a large plaque there explaining the involvement of a section of the SOE under the leadership of a Colonel Buckmaster. Apparently his section of the SOE set up 95 such groups (sabotage etc) in France during WW2.

Until a few years ago I was very proud of English history - how such a small country have conquered such a large part of the globe. Remember those maps that we saw at school with a large part painted red? However more recent events have made me think more of the peoples whose lives were ruined because of our greed.

fairynan if you want to be obtuse whatever floats your boat.

Casdon

I don’t think the Welsh flag has been used as a political weapon in the way the Union Jack has. I can’t speak for the Scottish flag, but in Wales our flag still belongs to the people, it’s a symbol of Welsh and proud - not really to do with politics at all.

in Wales our flag still belongs to the people, it’s a symbol of Welsh and proud - not really to do with politics at all
That is why I found Rachel Reeves's campaign photo annoying.

Vegan: I too am a military wife and close family died on the battlefield. If you don't understand what I am saying your problem

DGD in East London had to travel past streets of Palestinian flags on the way to school. London Transport bus drivers complained the flags dangerously blocked the view on the streets. They were removed.

Omg I've just remembered the Munich Olympics massacre and who was responsible.

vegansrock

Nearby to me a local council removed Palestinian flags which were hanging from lampposts, they were put up again and removed again. They haven’t reappeared. I support their removal.

Some Mayors have ordered the Palestinian flag to be flown on their town halls.
That is very wrong and must have been quite intimidating for any Jewish people living there.

I believe they were removed fairly promptly after protests.

That’s reassuring to read vegansrock. It’s dangerous imo for councils or political parties to show support for one ‘side’ only in this awful conflict. Saying this means I want an immediate stop for rockets into Israel, release hostages and for the Israeli govt to stop the bombing and work to get aid in and hospitals functioning

Thank goodness politics plays no part in flag waving during the Olympics. I've bought a stash of Union Jack flags and a hat to wear when the torch relay comes past our little French town in June. It would choke me to wave a flag that wasn't that of the country I live in.

So, if the Union Jack colours have negative connotations for some people - red, white, blue - how come the Tricolore is acceptable, and even Russia's colours? No one messes with them.

Nearby to me a local council removed Palestinian flags which were hanging from lampposts, they were put up again and removed again. They haven’t reappeared. I support their removal.

I’m not sure they are showing allegiance to a particular country, maybe just wanting to show which side they are on in this particular conflict, a bit like football supporters wearing their team’s shirt. Not necessarily a good thing IMO.

So how does that work with regard to the Palestinian marches? Nearly everyone holding a flag that is not the flag of the UK, but instead holding the flag of Palestine. Does that mean that the holders of these flags, when marching in British cities, are declaring their allegiance to a country/state/ ideology/ way of life that is not the one of the country they are living in?

Galaxy

Is that not again just that the flag is being used for politics that you dont agree with Dickens? I could argue that the use of the flag in connection with royalty as political, not party political, but political just the same.

Is that not again just that the flag is being used for politics that you dont agree with Dickens...

Well yes, it could be.

However, when the flag-draped individual is hollering aggressively at a woman holding the European flag, "you're a traitor, you retard", then to me, that equates to something akin to extremism. Though, of course, others may see it simply as passionate patriotism.

And yes - waving the flag during royal celebratory events is, by its very nature, 'political' - but I don't believe the intent at such events is to antagonise or intimidate by the average flag-waver.

What I am attempting to illustrate, obviously not very successfully, is that no-one should feel threatened by another who might be holding / waving their particular flag. That person is declaring their allegiance to a country / ideology / way of life. But if their intent is to intimidate those that don't subscribe to their 'politics', then they are weaponising the flag - using it for the purpose of spreading fear.

Could be seen as political that should say.

Is that not again just that the flag is being used for politics that you dont agree with Dickens? I could argue that the use of the flag in connection with royalty as political, not party political, but political just the same.

Faierynan
: Tell that to a soldier dying on a battlefield
I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be telling a a soldier dying on a battlefield, whom I’m sure will be thinking of things other than a flag, but as someone from a military family, some of whom have died on battlefields, I find your comments offensive.

Vegansrock: Tell that to a soldier dying on a battlefield

I think there is a difference between hoisting the flag and putting out bunting during, for example, the late Queen's Jubilee, or VE day celebrations, and antagonistic men strutting around draped in the Union Jack or Cross of St George on occasions when a political point is being made.

George Orwell said that patriotism is "devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life" - a sentiment that maybe many of us feel, and nothing wrong with that, it's a positive emotion.

Nationalism on the other hand seems to be based more on a dislike and contempt for anyone other than 'your own'.

As someone once said, a patriot is proud of his country for what it does - a nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does

So the flag has become symbolic - not only of patriotism, but of nationalism, and I think that is what some object to - but those same people are not unpatriotic, they are just aware of the divisive nature of nationalism.

I will wave the flag along with everyone else during a jubilant British event, but I cringe when combative, scowling men wearing a flag like a comfort blanket, parade around at some political rally or other, making a point which is most definitely not a celebratory one.

MaizieD

^What you're are saying is a remainer trope, to cause division.^

I think what Greta was saying, Freya is how she felt about the flying of the union flag at the time of the referendum. As you have no access to her inmost thoughts I suggest that you take what she says at face value. Seeking to invalidate it by calling it a 'remainer trope' won't work, I'm afraid.

Telling off accepted.