Katharine Birbalsingh – the head teacher of Michaela Community School.

*hasn't

A bit more accuracy, which I'm surprised yasnt been corrected here, is that the pupil is not 9 years old, but a teenager. Pupils do not attend the school until they are 11+.

The vegetarian menu accommodates all faiths. The question then is why couldn't KB find a solution that did something similar in this case? Would it have been OK if her solution to children having different diet requirements was no food on the premises?

Glorianny Come on, that is so lame.

Everyone eats. Everyone can eat vegetables, etc. It was an obvious and easy solution.

Not everyone prays, nor is commanded to, and will not fade away if they don't. When religions impose their strict doctrines on its adherents, it divides, separates and 'others' those outside of it.

The very thing KB is determined to prevent.

What is accurate and pertains to the discussion on this thread is that one pupil, funded by legal aid, is taking the Head Teacher to court for banning prayer in school.

So the reference to one pupil is correct.

So perhaps a little accuracy is required on this thread.

Quoting a tiny part of a presentation of one side of a court case and claiming that is an accurate representation of the whole of the case from both sides is inaccurate and subjective.

SporeRB

As far as I know, praying requirement for Muslims does not apply to children only adults.

In my country of origin where the Muslims constitute 15% of the population, multi faith prayer rooms are only provided in campus, polytechnics and technical institutes but not in schools.

This young Muslim girl is only 9 years old What she need is a good clip round the ear for wasting taxpayers’ money in free legal aid.

I think it's more the parents who need to be taken to task. I'm sure this 9-year-old wouldn't be doing this without their encouragement.

So perhaps a little accuracy is required on this thread. From the court room
The court heard that about 30 pupils started praying in the playground over a six-day period in March and used blazers to kneel on after they were “prohibited” from using prayer mats.

The school, where around half of its 700 pupils are Muslim, does not have a specific prayer room.

The praying pupils were “visible from the street” which sparked uproar among members of the public and led to the school receiving “abuse and harassment”, the court heard

So not one girl but 30 pupils.
The abuse and harassment came from outside the school and from people who saw the pupils praying.
Perhaps the concept that this is an issue for one child should be dropped

Of course it isn't all at the same time. It's set times for each so who is going to decide when each category gets allocated? You have to need to pray at a set time? Could they really allocate enough slots to potentially accommodate a huge number of children?

Would it have been OK if her solution to children having different diet requirements was no food on the premises? that's just ridiculous! If that's the best you can come up with........

vegansrock I think you’ll find prayer rooms in schools hardly get used. 99% of kids aren’t interested. The 20 or so kids in this school making a fuss are trying to get one over authority. Allow them to do something and they won’t want do it. I totally agree with The 20 or so kids in this school making a fuss are trying to get one over authority. If this girl succeeds in getting a prayer room you can guarantee there'll be other groups demanding special spaces too. It's in the nature of youth to be demanding and rebellious. Those prayer rooms in other schools are hardly used because they already exist. Forcing this school to create one will focus minds on "special treatment".

SporeRB

As far as I know, praying requirement for Muslims does not apply to children only adults.

In my country of origin where the Muslims constitute 15% of the population, multi faith prayer rooms are only provided in campus, polytechnics and technical institutes but not in schools.

This young Muslim girl is only 9 years old What she need is a good clip round the ear for wasting taxpayers’ money in free legal aid.

So a Muslim child cannot choose to pray? That's a bit discriminatory.

As far as I know, praying requirement for Muslims does not apply to children only adults.

In my country of origin where the Muslims constitute 15% of the population, multi faith prayer rooms are only provided in campus, polytechnics and technical institutes but not in schools.

This young Muslim girl is only 9 years old What she need is a good clip round the ear for wasting taxpayers’ money in free legal aid.

vegansrock

I think you’ll find prayer rooms in schools hardly get used. 99% of kids aren’t interested. The 20 or so kids in this school making a fuss are trying to get one over authority. Allow them to do something and they won’t want do it.

I think this provides an excellent reply to those considering they will in some way bring chaos.

Rosie51

Glorianny I did you the courtesy of reading the link you provided, unlike your ignoring the link to an interview with KB that I posted. I've just reread your link because I thought I remembered something from it, and it was this
It is important to emphasise that nurture in a religion or worldview is the responsibility of parents and carers, not the school.

Some schools choose to have prayer spaces, this school decided it emphasised difference and therefore was divisive and so doesn't. In her interview KB says that some Muslim parents have been disappointed with the lack of a prayer space but accept it because they want their child to attend the school. Jehovah Witness parents know their child will study Macbeth even though that goes against the tenets of their faith. She says all groups have to make sacrifices for the good of the whole. The vegetarian lunches came about because Muslims and Jews may not eat pork, Hindus may not eat beef. She wants that they all eat as "family" so all meat was banned for inclusivity and togetherness. That's a practical solution that maybe didn't go down well with all the meat eaters but they have to abide by it.

Prayer rooms cater for all faiths but unlikely to be of a size for all at the same time. What happens when different faiths want to pray at the same time, and especially for those faiths that don't segregate prayer by sex?

Of course it isn't all at the same time. It's set times for each.
I've posted what was said about sex segregation.
But here it is again
Schools come under the equalities duty and as such cannot bar either sex from using the space,these rules are not the same for places of worship and sometimes this needs explaining to pupils and parents. This does not mean that in reference to Muslim prayer that male and female mix together, but rather the space is divided into having an area for males and a separate area for females

The vegetarian menu accommodates all faiths. The question then is why couldn't KB find a solution that did something similar in this case? Would it have been OK if her solution to children having different diet requirements was no food on the premises?

I think you’ll find prayer rooms in schools hardly get used. 99% of kids aren’t interested. The 20 or so kids in this school making a fuss are trying to get one over authority. Allow them to do something and they won’t want do it.

Prayer rooms cater for all faiths but unlikely to be of a size for all at the same time. What happens when different faiths want to pray at the same time

Some would wish for silence, others would want to sing and praise loudly and joyfully ....

Others would be trying to concentrate on their algebra or English lit in nearby classrooms.

They could all take it in turns during the day.
Result - chaos.

I think religious services, prayers, really have no place in state schools today. The Education Act should be changed.
It should be up to families to provide religious nurture if they want their children to follow a faith.

Glorianny I did you the courtesy of reading the link you provided, unlike your ignoring the link to an interview with KB that I posted. I've just reread your link because I thought I remembered something from it, and it was this
It is important to emphasise that nurture in a religion or worldview is the responsibility of parents and carers, not the school.

Some schools choose to have prayer spaces, this school decided it emphasised difference and therefore was divisive and so doesn't. In her interview KB says that some Muslim parents have been disappointed with the lack of a prayer space but accept it because they want their child to attend the school. Jehovah Witness parents know their child will study Macbeth even though that goes against the tenets of their faith. She says all groups have to make sacrifices for the good of the whole. The vegetarian lunches came about because Muslims and Jews may not eat pork, Hindus may not eat beef. She wants that they all eat as "family" so all meat was banned for inclusivity and togetherness. That's a practical solution that maybe didn't go down well with all the meat eaters but they have to abide by it.

Prayer rooms cater for all faiths but unlikely to be of a size for all at the same time. What happens when different faiths want to pray at the same time, and especially for those faiths that don't segregate prayer by sex?

Rosie51

^And in this instance permitting prayer and meditation for all religions might have proved a better solution. There are many schools who have gone down this route. It doesn't seem to have promoted division. The way this school ruled obviously has.^

So you think an entire school should change its rules because one girl didn't want to accept what had been agreed and known about when she joined? You still haven't explained how a small school finds enough spare rooms to accommodate possibly 600+ children demanding a space for them to do their desired practice. Ideas are fine but practical solutions can become difficult.
If prayer or meditation is paramount to someone's being then surely it is sensible to enrol in a school that accommodates them. To knowingly enrol in a school that makes no provision but then demand that provision is made is the height of arrogance.

Absolutely right.

And in this instance permitting prayer and meditation for all religions might have proved a better solution. There are many schools who have gone down this route. It doesn't seem to have promoted division. The way this school ruled obviously has.

So you think an entire school should change its rules because one girl didn't want to accept what had been agreed and known about when she joined? You still haven't explained how a small school finds enough spare rooms to accommodate possibly 600+ children demanding a space for them to do their desired practice. Ideas are fine but practical solutions can become difficult.
If prayer or meditation is paramount to someone's being then surely it is sensible to enrol in a school that accommodates them. To knowingly enrol in a school that makes no provision but then demand that provision is made is the height of arrogance.

Rosie51

Glorianny Of course her behaviour and words are not irrelevant. They form an aspect of who she is and her reasons for bringing the case. To be critical of this girl and her case is not to be Islamophobic. If she was Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or an atheist I'd be equally critical. Fear of being called nasty names can't be allowed to govern our actions and responses.

Would you care to respond to my point in my last post about all the other faiths and none being accommodated? Of course I forgot to say they'll need two rooms for Muslims and another two for Jews as the sexes don't usually pray side by side.

Are you equally adamant that every other school should hold a collective act of worship every day, as it's not something I've ever noticed you bringing to other discussions?

But in doing so she will have to make it clear that she told the parents this at the time of the signing. I doubt very much that the agreement said the school didn't abide by the law. She makes it absolutely clear that there is no prayer room, no chapel, no rooms allocated for any religious observations. They do permit the wearing of cultural head coverings for those that wish to abide by those tenets of their faith. You obviously haven't watched the video I linked to, because she explains there her reasoning behind all her decisions.

I linked to a Newham document about prayer rooms earlier in this thread. It is an issue many schools have addressed successfully.
It says
^Schools come under the equalities duty and as such cannot bar either sex from using the space,these rules are not the same for places of worship and sometimes this needs explaining to
pupils and parents. This does not mean that in reference to Muslim prayer that male and female mix together, but rather the space is divided into having an area for males and a separate area for females^
Prayer rooms cater for all faiths.

Dickens

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Do carry on (and on and on) by all means but I think most posters know your modus operandi on so many threads after all these years.

🙂

This "You are just twisting what `I say" attitude is pathetic. Explain to me how a girl asking for a place to pray, being refused and told not to pray and then taking court action is in anyway related to the Trojan Horse which was used by Greek soldiers to infiltrate the city of Troy and destroy it.
Otherwise accept in this instance you have made a huge mistake.

Do you genuinely believe that this is just about an innocent child wanting to pray and feeling hurt and alienated because she's been told that she can't?

If it really were as simple as that, I think KB would have been able to talk to the girl, and her parents, explain and re-iterate sympathetically to the child the rules and ethos of the school. And any reasonable and rational parents would have understood and accepted that the contract they signed with the school at the beginning of the year had to apply to them without fear or favour, as it did for all the other pupils and parents.

The 'trojan horse' reference may be an unfortunate parallel - but are you going to insist that there are not those staunch conservative Muslims who want to impose their beliefs and override our values and democracy? Those who demand that films be pulled from cinemas, books banned? We don't do this in the UK, we allow freedom of speech; we challenge controversial views, but we don't generally threaten those who disagree with us.

I feel sorry for this child... being buffeted between a cohort who are attempting to hijack her young mind for their own ends, and the school, attempting to restore its original ethos and character, against the background of threats, bullying and abuse. For goodness' sake, she should be sitting in school today with all the other students soaking up her lessons, mixing with all the other children, playing at break-time and enjoying these short, formative years which will end all too quickly.

If the ban is revoked, this will not be the end of the matter because a precedent will have been set. Some kids won't care of course, they will just carry on as normal, but children are by nature at puberty, rebellious and awkward, and therefore might also attempt to make demands for their own culture or religion... some (knowing kids) just for the hell of it. Segregation is the very thing that KB is attempting to avoid; it might even be part of the reason the school is so successful. It might end up now being the very thing that destroys the school, ultimately.

If you really believe that this is just a simple matter about a child wanting to pray, then I think you are being naive.

And please do not accuse me of Islamophobia. I am not fearful of Muslims nor of Islam (I'm not actually fearful of any religion or culture). When people speak openly and honestly about what they think or feel on here, they should be allowed to do that without being intimidated by a poster who is all too ready to jump to accusations of 'phobia.

I'm always prepared to debate openly and honestly which was why I was so shocked by the Trojan Horse metaphor which has been supported by some posters. It simply is not supported by the majority of Muslims I know. I can't think why anyone wouldn't immediately withdraw such a post or distance themselves from it.

This does not mean that I do not appreciate that there are people who are fanatics. I simply think that in the majority of instances diplomacy and consultation lead to agreement. However I also know that some headteachers are very inflexible and regard any adjustments as unacceptable.
And in this instance permitting prayer and meditation for all religions might have proved a better solution. There are many schools who have gone down this route. It doesn't seem to have promoted division. The way this school ruled obviously has.

But Rosie51, why would anyone intent on disagreeing with you watch a video which might support your point.
*Should all parents/children are allowed to do just as they like and expect provision to be made for their demands (remember those who self ID as animals)?
What do those supporting that, think would be the impact on discipline and education?

Should children or groups be allowed to bully, threaten or coerce other children to do what they want (I remember the group attacks on my DGD when she refused to say she was a boy).

What do those supporting that, think would be the impact on discipline and education?

Are some posters on here really saying that a group or an individual should be allowed to change rules to suit themselves and should be allowed to bully, coerce, or threaten to achieve their aims.

It seems to be happening more often. We’ve seen it with Animals, and gender. This time it’s religion.
Whether the demands are met or not, I wonder what will be next. As with blackmail, you can be sure that giving into demands will cause further demands to happen more quickly.
If the demands are me

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Do carry on (and on and on) by all means but I think most posters know your modus operandi on so many threads after all these years.

🙂

This "You are just twisting what `I say" attitude is pathetic. Explain to me how a girl asking for a place to pray, being refused and told not to pray and then taking court action is in anyway related to the Trojan Horse which was used by Greek soldiers to infiltrate the city of Troy and destroy it.
Otherwise accept in this instance you have made a huge mistake.

Do you genuinely believe that this is just about an innocent child wanting to pray and feeling hurt and alienated because she's been told that she can't?

If it really were as simple as that, I think KB would have been able to talk to the girl, and her parents, explain and re-iterate sympathetically to the child the rules and ethos of the school. And any reasonable and rational parents would have understood and accepted that the contract they signed with the school at the beginning of the year had to apply to them without fear or favour, as it did for all the other pupils and parents.

The 'trojan horse' reference may be an unfortunate parallel - but are you going to insist that there are not those staunch conservative Muslims who want to impose their beliefs and override our values and democracy? Those who demand that films be pulled from cinemas, books banned? We don't do this in the UK, we allow freedom of speech; we challenge controversial views, but we don't generally threaten those who disagree with us.

I feel sorry for this child... being buffeted between a cohort who are attempting to hijack her young mind for their own ends, and the school, attempting to restore its original ethos and character, against the background of threats, bullying and abuse. For goodness' sake, she should be sitting in school today with all the other students soaking up her lessons, mixing with all the other children, playing at break-time and enjoying these short, formative years which will end all too quickly.

If the ban is revoked, this will not be the end of the matter because a precedent will have been set. Some kids won't care of course, they will just carry on as normal, but children are by nature at puberty, rebellious and awkward, and therefore might also attempt to make demands for their own culture or religion... some (knowing kids) just for the hell of it. Segregation is the very thing that KB is attempting to avoid; it might even be part of the reason the school is so successful. It might end up now being the very thing that destroys the school, ultimately.

If you really believe that this is just a simple matter about a child wanting to pray, then I think you are being naive.

And please do not accuse me of Islamophobia. I am not fearful of Muslims nor of Islam (I'm not actually fearful of any religion or culture). When people speak openly and honestly about what they think or feel on here, they should be allowed to do that without being intimidated by a poster who is all too ready to jump to accusations of 'phobia.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny the enrolment document would have been scrutinised by many officials in the relevant departments.

Why are you inferring that this document breaks the law complete fairytale land…

If you had read about this case fully you would have known that it was not as simple as this child praying in the playground it was the bullying and harassment of other children by this child who they thought should also be praying along with the threats to teachers.

The problem is that sometimes something is omitted from a document. So the document could say that the school was secular but make no mention of the requirement for collective worship. In fact as the requirement is seldom observed it is highly likely. That doesn't mean that the school can absolve itself of the requirement when a parent raises it.

The bullying resulted from the issue of praying not being addressed.
Suppose this was a child who decided they wanted to dance, other children joined her, some children said they didn't want to dance but the girl said they were just clumsy and they should dance The teacher said dancing was forbidden. Would that be OK? Would that solve the issue?

Using the threats as the reason for not permitting prayer isn't really supportable.

I think this school has amazing results. I am not certain that it has anything to do with KB or her methods. There has been since 2014 a movement in the US for small schools. The theory is that huge schools in large buildings fail substantial numbers of children. Schools between 400 and 800 children seem to be the number seen as best. I think one of the most significant things about Michaela school is its low numbers.

Glorianny Of course her behaviour and words are not irrelevant. They form an aspect of who she is and her reasons for bringing the case. To be critical of this girl and her case is not to be Islamophobic. If she was Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or an atheist I'd be equally critical. Fear of being called nasty names can't be allowed to govern our actions and responses.

Would you care to respond to my point in my last post about all the other faiths and none being accommodated? Of course I forgot to say they'll need two rooms for Muslims and another two for Jews as the sexes don't usually pray side by side.

Are you equally adamant that every other school should hold a collective act of worship every day, as it's not something I've ever noticed you bringing to other discussions?

But in doing so she will have to make it clear that she told the parents this at the time of the signing. I doubt very much that the agreement said the school didn't abide by the law. She makes it absolutely clear that there is no prayer room, no chapel, no rooms allocated for any religious observations. They do permit the wearing of cultural head coverings for those that wish to abide by those tenets of their faith. You obviously haven't watched the video I linked to, because she explains there her reasoning behind all her decisions.

Glorianny the enrolment document would have been scrutinised by many officials in the relevant departments.

Why are you inferring that this document breaks the law complete fairytale land…

If you had read about this case fully you would have known that it was not as simple as this child praying in the playground it was the bullying and harassment of other children by this child who they thought should also be praying along with the threats to teachers.

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

GrannyGravy13

Glorianny

Callistemon21

Do carry on (and on and on) by all means but I think most posters know your modus operandi on so many threads after all these years.

🙂

This "You are just twisting what `I say" attitude is pathetic. Explain to me how a girl asking for a place to pray, being refused and told not to pray and then taking court action is in anyway related to the Trojan Horse which was used by Greek soldiers to infiltrate the city of Troy and destroy it.
Otherwise accept in this instance you have made a huge mistake.

Sorry you are wrong in this instance.

The school has an enrolment form, with a comprehensive list of what is and is not available at this excellent school.

The child (TTT) and her parents signed the form on enrolment.

The child (TTT) has been temporarily suspended for threatening behaviour, has vowed to damage the school (in court papers so not supposition) , and is now trying to change the rules from within, which is one definition of a Trojan horse.

Meaning of Trojan horse
Metaphorically, a "Trojan horse" has come to mean any trick or stratagem that causes a target to invite a foe into a securely protected bastion or place
So you are saying that a Muslim girl who wanted to pray was
1. A foe
And that a school is
1. A securely protected place.

The requirement is I would imagine that the school is secular. That does not mean that religion can be ignored, as posted before, an act of collective worship is legally required and that act should cater for groups of children in the school. No matter what agreement parents were expected to sign ,the law is clear.

The behaviour of the child, her temporary suspension and whatever she said is irrelevant in the case. Although I realise that they contribute hugely to swaying public opinion and promoting Islamophobia.
Which I think is obvious on this thread.

I sincerely hope you are not accusing me of Islamophobia, because if you are I will be reporting you to GNHQ.

I think you need to deploy some critical thinking regarding this case, or are you just being contrary for the sake of it?

Are you implying that any contract between any school, parent and child can be declared non and void on the whim of a disruptive pupil? As that is how your posts are coming across.

As for the definition of Trojan horse, language and meanings evolve, as an ex teacher I would have thought you would be aware of this.

I think I made it very clear that my argument is that a school cannot impose on its parents an agreement that breaks the law. In doing so such an agreement must of necessity become null and void. And the law requires a collective act of worship.
KB may well argue that in practise this is not enforced in schools. But in doing so she will have to make it clear that she told the parents this at the time of the signing. I doubt very much that the agreement said the school didn't abide by the law.

The meaning I posted was taken from a recent definition. Meanings may evolve, but the original premise always remains.
In this case deliberate deception in order to destroy the school. That certainly isn't obvious.
The child was praying in the playground. The matter could have been dealt with. It wasn't.