What is meant by multiculturalism?

Dinahmo... crème fraîche?
😱

greenlady102 I will absolutely support a woman's choice to be hijabi, to wear burka and niqab in public, to go into an arranged marriage, to not work outside the home, to shave her head and wear a shtetl, to have a large family because her church forbids contraception and so on...but it should be HER choice.

But none of these things are really her choice if she is groomed from birth and the men in her family expect her to conform. She may say it's her choice, she may even believe it's her choice, but that's a choice she has been taught to make.

MaizieD

You forgot 'elderly ladies cycling to church in the morning mist', Chestnut

It’s actually ‘old maids bicycling to holy communion’ etc.
It was used by John Major, a quote from George Orwell.

I love your list Chestnut 😃

I've read Chestnut's list and I am none and do none of those things

I think being British is having pets, dogs & cats specifically, roast dinners, relaxing Sundays, family, reading, art, theatre, comedy, good pubs, antiques, going for walks, reading, good music, festivals, chips on the beach, markets, car boot sales. That is my optimistic list and a non religious white woman.

I live in a multicultural area and I am the only British person in my team at work. We are not that different to one another really. All people want to do is the get on, with education, work and get paid but above all all these people put their families first. I think it is damaging to focus on such high profile negative stereotyping, the sort of stuff these extreme groups focus on. The issues in Rochdale and Rotherham were about much more than grooming gangs. The area has a very high proportion of children's home (and other 'homes') too and in my own personal opinion, we need to look at how society is structured in order that vulnerable people can no longer live in their own communities and are moved elsewhere (children specifically - unless there is a cause for this to happen) sorry to go off on a tangent but I feel this needs to be mentioned

Chestnut

greenlady102 I will absolutely support a woman's choice to be hijabi, to wear burka and niqab in public, to go into an arranged marriage, to not work outside the home, to shave her head and wear a shtetl, to have a large family because her church forbids contraception and so on...but it should be HER choice.

But none of these things are really her choice if she is groomed from birth and the men in her family expect her to conform. She may say it's her choice, she may even believe it's her choice, but that's a choice she has been taught to make.

I agree in part. All of us are taught to make choices according to what our parents and our circumstances believe or do....but as we grow up and experience other people's opinions and choices it has an effect on our own. That is what I mean by choice....that people should be given the opportunity to experience other ways of living and to decide what of their upbringing they want to keep or change.

JaneJudge I've read Chestnut's list and I am none and do none of those things. I think being British is having pets, dogs & cats specifically, roast dinners, relaxing Sundays, family, reading, art, theatre, comedy, good pubs, antiques, going for walks, reading, good music, festivals, chips on the beach, markets, car boot sales. That is my optimistic list and a non religious white woman.

You do not need to participate in the things on my list, they are just quintessential English things that you will only find in England (apart from cricket).

I don't think your list represents English culture. I'll agree with roast dinners, fish and chips, and traditional pubs, but people read books and listen to music all over the world, also keep pets and do all the other things you mention. English culture has to be things you will only find in England.

I think that is what I was trying to say, we are not really that different.One of the men I work with thinks we are obsessed with sugar

I get what you're saying, that in many ways people all enjoy the same things. I made a list because someone asked me to define English culture, and to me that means things and activities only found in England or primarily associated with England.

Vintagewhine There are a significant number of, mainly muslim, commuities where even the most respected male elders will talk and consider women and girls, who do not adhere to their strict cultural norms for women as prostitutes and whores, and that is how they see women in wider society around them, who have the choice to take what sexual partners they wish when they wish, and the right to reject those they do not wish to have a physical relationship with, as being prostitutes who should be prepared to have sex with however wants to have sex with them and be raped if they resisted.

Many of these vile men - and I would not argue with your description of them were respected in their community.

As for suggesting the police did nothing because they met with such shock and horror from the 'decent' ethnic population, is absolutely risible. Did you read any of the report following the cases in Rotheram and Oxford. There was the Alex Jay report www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/279/independent-inquiry-into-child-sexual-exploitation-in-rotherham and the Select Committee of Parliament enquiry publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/6802.htm

greenlady102 All of us are taught to make choices according to what our parents and our circumstances believe or do....but as we grow up and experience other people's opinions and choices it has an effect on our own. That is what I mean by choice....that people should be given the opportunity to experience other ways of living and to decide what of their upbringing they want to keep or change.

Ideally yes, but in practice are these teenage girls allowed to experience other ways of living and to choose their own way? Some of them are made to wear a hijab in Primary school even though it should be a choice they make when older. Within their family group they are unlikely to be allowed to make a choice in anything.

In certain communities, no choice is available, you go by the community rules or you are ejected. The stories that girls, who have made the choice and done something their community does not approve of have been cut off by their fsmily and several have been murdered.

This is not specifically Islamic. It has happened in the extreme Orthodox Jew community and some of the more fundementalist Christian communities like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren and, i think, in Scientology, plus, of course those very odd extremist cults.

MOnica, I am very familiar with the Jay report and it supports my view
Thanks for posting it, it's horrible to read but hopefully in the future "culture" and "race" are never seen as reasons for failing to deal effectively with criminals. This is why it's vital to call these crimes out for what they are rather than pretend that they are the cultural norms of certain ethnic groups. This is how we help the abused women and children in all parts of our society, it's about power not religion and we should demonstrate forcibly that we know that and will protect everyone in our society.

M0nica

In certain communities, no choice is available, you go by the community rules or you are ejected. The stories that girls, who have made the choice and done something their community does not approve of have been cut off by their fsmily and several have been murdered.

This is not specifically Islamic. It has happened in the extreme Orthodox Jew community and some of the more fundementalist Christian communities like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Plymouth Brethren and, i think, in Scientology, plus, of course those very odd extremist cults.

Until not very long ago, in the Catholic church- and still so in parts of the world.

It’s not just the women, the men have to behave according to the cultural norms or they get cut off from the society. Obviously it’s not as restrictive as women, but most have a strict religious education and are obliged to attend the mosque regularly. There are many advantages of being a good Muslim which are not available to those who choose not to be part of the community.

There is a new school currently being built in my locality. It is a Muslim only school. Non Muslims will not be allowed to attend. Despite protests it was signed off. I can’t see how children attending this school will experience any other cultures. It is creating an even bigger divide. People are shocked that this is happening. Other religious schools have to take a percentage of different religious or non religious children but not this one. Multiculturalism?

Katie59 I wonder how much you know about living as a Muslim in the UK. You appear to be lumping "them" altogether. The reality is different.

I see no advantages whatsoever to the multiculturalism that is today's Britain.

Skydancer

I see no advantages whatsoever to the multiculturalism that is today's Britain.

The UK has been multicultural for thousands of years. What kind of monoculture do you envisage Skydancer?

growstuff

Katie59 I wonder how much you know about living as a Muslim in the UK. You appear to be lumping "them" altogether. The reality is different.

There is a massive difference a few years ago I became close friends with a Muslim family and visited their home frequently. The mother living with them did wear a headscarf, the younger women dressed in “eastern style” otherwise nothing special. The family did live Islamic lives, the children attends religious classes in the same way I attended Sunday school.
So I can contrast them with the others that wear full Islamic regalia and live sharia lives.

I looked up a few definitions of culture and came up with the following:

"the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively"

"the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society."

the definition I found for multiculturism is:

"the presence of, or support for the presence of, several distinct cultural or ethnic groups within a society."

Many of the posts describe negative events such as grooming and FGM. Some of them talk about bagpipes and haggis and Henley Regatta as if that was the total sum. But there is much more to the culture of the United Kingdom of which we can be very proud, than the aforementioned. London and the other major cities are teeming with a wide variety of art, architecture, music and dance. There used to be more support for local, multicultural activities. than there is currently.

The BBC and other major channels produce many cultural programmes, such as the Young Dancer of the year competition which features Indian dancers, street, hip hop artists, ballet and contemporary dancers.

The UK is probably the best served country for ethnic foods which everyone can enjoy if they wish.

Katie59

growstuff

Katie59 I wonder how much you know about living as a Muslim in the UK. You appear to be lumping "them" altogether. The reality is different.

There is a massive difference a few years ago I became close friends with a Muslim family and visited their home frequently. The mother living with them did wear a headscarf, the younger women dressed in “eastern style” otherwise nothing special. The family did live Islamic lives, the children attends religious classes in the same way I attended Sunday school.
So I can contrast them with the others that wear full Islamic regalia and live sharia lives.

As you possibly know, my son-in-law comes from an Arab Muslim family. I've met his family and I don't recognise the stereotyping of Arabs or Muslims.

Dinahmo There's more to multiculturalism than that. It goes back centuries. We have all been influenced by and benefited from ideas which originated in other cultures.

M0nica

Vintagewhine There are a significant number of, mainly muslim, commuities where even the most respected male elders will talk and consider women and girls, who do not adhere to their strict cultural norms for women as prostitutes and whores, and that is how they see women in wider society around them, who have the choice to take what sexual partners they wish when they wish, and the right to reject those they do not wish to have a physical relationship with, as being prostitutes who should be prepared to have sex with however wants to have sex with them and be raped if they resisted.

Many of these vile men - and I would not argue with your description of them were respected in their community.

As for suggesting the police did nothing because they met with such shock and horror from the 'decent' ethnic population, is absolutely risible. Did you read any of the report following the cases in Rotheram and Oxford. There was the Alex Jay report www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/279/independent-inquiry-into-child-sexual-exploitation-in-rotherham and the Select Committee of Parliament enquiry publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmhaff/68/6802.htm

I find your post really distressing Monica, in fact it makes me feel sick to my stomach to know that a “ significant? ” number of the Muslim men treat their women as prostitutes and whores.

My family in the Far East are Muslims. My nieces, they all have equal access to education and practically all of them went to local universities studying STEM subjects and work full time. One of them is a criminal lawyer.

I was told that my cousin’s wife went to study in America (not sure for how long) and she left her husband and children behind with her husband’s consent of course.

I am pleased to say that my brothers and BILs treat their wives no different that the way my English husband treats me.

Talking to the Pakistani taxi drivers here in the UK, I got the impression they’re the same.

I did ask them whether they celebrate Christmas and put up the Christmas tree in their homes and I was surprised when they answered yes.

From afar what I think of as British is
Very, very Historical buildings, especially castles,Westminster Abbey and things like Anne Boleyn’s residence. Stratford, of course and Shakespeare.
Green grass, really, really bright green
Pubs where people will just chat to you whether they know you or not
Accents wide and varied
Queues- mostly very orderly, no pushing
Red buses with a double deck.

I've never heard of any immigrants making our grass any less green or our buses any less red.