Lawrence Fox

I think I would prefer to see a Minister for MH, responsible for a team of people each with responsibility for different areas - Men, Women and Children. Some initiatives could benefit all groups, so having separate or competing departments would be detrimental. Others might need to be considered independently, and that could also happen.

I think it is absolutely necessary to give a lot more resources to MH as a matter of urgency, though.

Suicide by men came into it, bringing a deliberate avoidance of
subject by MsE.

A thread - specifically about suicide - could indeed be started. My only misgiving is that the very title of it could be very distressing to some posters - including those who are just 'lurking'.

I appreciate that this particular thread is about Fox specifically, inevitably, the subject of suicide came into it - inevitably because that was what was being discussed, it triggered his rant, and although the two 'issues' are separate they've now become entwined.

Fox's antagonism towards those - especially women - who don't subscribe to his world view appears to be widely understood. Regardless of whatever the matter that 'triggers' him, he seems to fly into an uncontrollable rage which compels him to insult those who disagree with him. He has a real bee in his bonnet about 'political correctness' and 'woke-ism' and appears to think he's the voice of the victimised minority of Conservative, right-wing, demographic who need protecting from it, from those who are determined to destroy those 'British values'! And, as far as 'British' values are concerned - I do remember when televised debate was governed by a level of civility towards those taking part; when panellists, presenters or those being interviewed appeared to understand impartiality and accuracy and, however 'emotional' a topic, would adhere to the standards expected in public debate, and not give way to temper tantrums or vulgar, demeaning insults. For the most part. Fox has lowered the bar on those 'British values'.

icanhandthemback it’s ok, you are so right about ‘cry for help’, and ‘serious intention’, men choose for example hanging , women ‘medication’, my daughter jumped from a bridge into a river at night, serious intention. My concern is there are so many women to come who will know the same grief.

This discussion has really made me think and when I look back over the years, I realise just how many men I know have committed suicide. One of my best teenage friends, my Mum's friend, my sister's fiancee, my son's best friend from school, my ex flat mate and others I knew more vaguely. Even my stepson had to move back home on 24 hour watch because of the plans he was making to kill himself. In that time, the only females I know who attempted suicide were my mother and my sister but I'm not sure that their attempts were a serious intention to end life but a cry for help. All of the above were well planned and done in such a way that you'd have been really lucky to have stumbled upon them to save them and I suspect that is the difference between the two sexes. Woman are more likely to cry for help in the way they go about things whereas men don't. Obviously that is a generalised view from what I have seen but I think it explains why I think a Minister for Men isn't a bad thing. However, we need a complete overhaul of the mental health services because it isn't meeting the needs of anybody at the moment. Not for children, not for women and not for men.
Anniebach, please do not think what I am saying is trivialising what was happening with your daughter. I certainly wasn't and my heart goes out to you because I can't imagine the pain you must feel.

Kandinsky

*I do not support what he said but the mob mentality reminds me of a lynching*

100%

The ‘woke’ brigade hate him because he’s a white heterosexual male who dares to disagree with them.

Who are 'the woke brigade', and what evidence do you have for your assertions about why they 'hate him'? Who 'hates' white heterosexual men? And what is it that 'the woke brigade' disagree with?

What a mountain out of a molehill.

I do not support what he said but the mob mentality reminds me of a lynching

100%

The ‘woke’ brigade hate him because he’s a white heterosexual male who dares to disagree with them.

Try finding old tweets from her refering to “shagging” to give context to Fox comments. Its like trying to find a needle in a haystack

Occam’s razor, anyone?

Anniebach

Dickens I was instructed here to start another thread if I wanted to speak of suicide , my adored daughter ended her life
6 years ago . A man takes his life , so often this leaves a mother ,
grandmother, wife, sisters, daughters, no matter here it’s nothing to do with women .

Annie, that is not strictly true, is it? You said that we wouldn't be talking about suicide if Fox hadn't been so unpleasant to AE. I pointed out that the tread wasn't about suicide, but about Fox's misogyny and suspension. You then said that you were talking about suicide. Someone (possibly me) suggested that if you wanted to discuss suicide outside of this context you could start a thread.

I am very sorry about your daughter, and completely understand your sensitivity on the subject, which is why it would make sense to separate that from Fox's behaviour, which is, after all, the topic of this thread. Posters refuting suggestions that his comments were justified because AE appeared to have minimised the seriousness of male suicide could appear to be disrespectful of the subject of suicide as a whole, which would not be the intention.

Anyone who considers that Fox is a suitable person to advocate on behalf of men, particularly with regard to male suicide is surely failing to understand why the rate for male suicide is so much higher than that of females. Sadly I have known three men who have taken their own lives and no-one in their closest circle of friends had any idea that they were feeling so desperate because so many men feel unable to talk about how they feel. Men like Fox and Tate don't encourage men to be more open about their feelings, completely the opposite in fact. IMO creating a minister on a single issue is missing the point, we need better mental health services for everyone and for every age and much more acceptance of mental illness and a lot less stigma attached to it.

Anniebach

Dickens I was instructed here to start another thread if I wanted to speak of suicide , my adored daughter ended her life
6 years ago . A man takes his life , so often this leaves a mother ,
grandmother, wife, sisters, daughters, no matter here it’s nothing to do with women .

I know Anniebach .

I don't know who "instructed" you to start another thread but - as is usual - such topics enlarge and, as suicide is at the heart of the matter, I don't see why one can't discuss the devastating effect it has on the families who have been left to cope with it, which you will understand more than most on here. .

I realise this thread is about Lawrence Fox and his misogyny - but it is also directly related to suicide, male suicide - if someone wants to report me for talking about it, specifically, then they're free to do that.

Pragmatist

Doodledog - you think the irony of the liberal left being illiberal when things are said they do not like as an insult - it is irony not an insult. Your reply is mere deflection - again not an insult but an observation.

Ok then. Semantics, (and I don't see the comments as illiberal - you can't just sneak that in and have it taken as read ) , but point taken. Now can we hear your opinions on the 'debate' rather than irony and observations of others? It's hardly fair to snipe from the sidelines and not join in, is it?

Re the LF 'Reclaim' video - I agree with Dickens that he is articulate when he wants to be - that'll be the Harrow education. The speech was well crafted, whoever wrote it, and presses the right buttons for his audience. His references to male suicide were well made, although weakened by the blatant populism in '99% of all men are . . .' and the suggestion that sexism and misogyny are aberrations perpetrated by the 1%. That is blatantly untrue. On the whole, those things are not down to individuals, but about attitudes and systemic structures. It's not the 'fault' of individual men, but they are part of it, in the same way as however much I try not to be racist, we live in a racist society, and as a white woman I will contribute to that whether I realise it or not. The men I call 'decent' are the ones who realise that society is sexist and try to change that, or not to make it worse.

Fox tried to appeal to the 'they are picking on me' feelings of men who may want the best for their wives and daughters, but are not interested in how society works - they are ok with earning more and being deferred to, and feel aggrieved when women point out the unfairness. It's a sensitive demographic which is easily roused to feelings of victimisation and feels threatened by successful women - or just those who speak up for themselves, and the speech played up to that.

As for AE's comments - they were crass, and her manner is jarring; but (and not to excuse it) I think that is part of the current trend for panelists and guests shouting over one another on TV. I dislike that trend, and really wish those chairing debates had a 'Jackie Weaver button' and could shut up interruptors and shouters-down . Some of AE's points were valid, although others would have been better suited to a different discussion, and she didn't help her cause by the constant butting in. Norcott was very reasoned in his comments and how he didn't rise to the bait.

Nevertheless, whatever AE said (and I'm not a fan), there is no excuse for the retort to be about whether or not Fox would have sex with her. All the excuses and 'not all men' comments cannot change that.

As apologies go, IMO that video was more of a declaration of victimhood, and possibly even a call to action for his band of followers.

growstuff

Dickens

growstuff

But it is also critical of men who have more respect for women. They see them as wimps.

... they are referred to as "simps".

I thought a simp was a person who tries to gain favour by being overly nice. My understanding of a wimp is somebody who is seen as weak. For a man with macho aspirations, that's somebody who isn't prepared to walk over people.

I must admit I don't often use street slang, so always happy to learn.

I thought a simp was a person who tries to gain favour by being overly nice.

... well that's exactly what the men who've swallowed the *'Red Pill' doctrine think that men who are supportive of women are doing... basically 'sucking up to them. They are considered weak - ergo a 'wimp' - thus becoming a simpering-wimp = simp. I don't use street slang either, but if you venture into the murky and depressing world of angry men - you will discover it at some point.

* Red Pill
www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/apr/14/the-red-pill-reddit-modern-misogyny-manosphere-men

... there's another article on the subject in The Telegraph (for balance) but it's behind a paywall.

I don't know how frequently the word is used but I have seen it levelled at men by the permanently 'angry brigade' a few times.

Sadly the internet giants control what we can see on the internet. Try finding old tweets from her refering to “shagging” to give context to Fox comments. Its like trying to find a needle in a haystack. But search Fox and you get millions of auotes from people saying how bad it was, sack him, ruin his life, he should never work on media again. I do not support what he said but the mob mentality reminds me of a lynching

I see so many bad things in the world, but justice on social media is handed out more strongly for certain topics, like sexism, racism. If you want to stand up for problems that affect men disproportionately and suggest extra help for men, this can be put down with impunity. The majority of you will have different views, but I see so many inequalities in the actions taken in the name of equality.

Doodledog - you think the irony of the liberal left being illiberal when things are said they do not like as an insult - it is irony not an insult. Your reply is mere deflection - again not an insult but an observation.

I think Geoff Norcott may do something in terms of Male suicide, apparently since the publicity he has been approached by a number of charities who work on this issue.

I hope it isn’t too personal to state that as well as work I have personal experience of male mental health problems.
Three 17 year old boys at the school my children attended hung themselves. The impact on their friendship group, including parents, remains 20 years later. There have been other suicide and a close friend from the group was recently prevented from taking his life.

Nick Fletcher, a conservative MP was recently interviewed extensively on radio/tv/news media about his suggestion that there should be a Minister for Men. Ana Evans has stated that the point she was trying to make was we need a Minister for mental health, rather than a minister for men. We have a mental health crisis in our country, starting with our children and progressing. Our society is increasingly polarised.

Dickens I was instructed here to start another thread if I wanted to speak of suicide , my adored daughter ended her life
6 years ago . A man takes his life , so often this leaves a mother ,
grandmother, wife, sisters, daughters, no matter here it’s nothing to do with women .

I've watched the whole interview and I can't imagine why those two women were even invited to talk about mental health. Neither seemed to know much about it.

I happen to agree that a minister for mental health (not gender specific) is needed, but the point was badly made. I really don't see the relevance of male pay to mental health.

Nevertheless, the Fox's reaction was unjustifiable.

Dickens

growstuff

But it is also critical of men who have more respect for women. They see them as wimps.

... they are referred to as "simps".

I thought a simp was a person who tries to gain favour by being overly nice. My understanding of a wimp is somebody who is seen as weak. For a man with macho aspirations, that's somebody who isn't prepared to walk over people.

I must admit I don't often use street slang, so always happy to learn.

Saetana

This video posted by Laurence Fox gives some more insight into his views on this matter.
twitter.com/LozzaFox/status/1707455361072976105

Listening to him - it's quite obvious he's capable of reasoned argument - or certainly understands the concept... it's unfortunate that he doesn't use his intelligence to employ it instead of going off half-cocked.

Earlier, I watched Ava and the other woman (can't remember her name) reacting to the suggestion of creating a Minister for Men because of the alarming statistics on male suicide. She appeared to not even consider it but immediately launched into her own belief in a Minister for Mental Health - and then the other woman was going on about men still earning more than women. I can see why it provoked anger. Yes, we probably do need a minister looking at mental health provision and yes men do still earn more than women - but these are separate matters. If the statistics are correct, that suicide is the biggest killer of men under 50, then that is bloody awful, it's shocking - the least Ava and the other woman could have done is to pause and think about it before launching into their 'whataboutery'.

I've not had anyone close to me commit suicide, but a work colleague did, and it had the most profound effect on me, well, on all of us. The man was going through an anxious period in his life which we knew about but had no idea that he was reaching the point where he couldn't cope, we didn't see his desperation. He was on a business trip and hanged himself in his hotel bedroom. It became clear later that he just didn't have any resource - there was no-one he felt he could turn to for advice. No-one was there for him. He left a wife and children. I still think about it and it was some years ago now, so goodness only knows how it is for the families who are close to the person. It's harrowing. Perhaps Ava just hasn't paid that much attention to the matter - she certainly appeared rather indifferent.

growstuff

But it is also critical of men who have more respect for women. They see them as wimps.

... they are referred to as "simps".

Pragmatist

Rather than debate Fox and his view on the world, he is classed as a deplorable, never to be forgiven, a disgusting human being. I love the liberal left.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

Why not debate his view of the world then? You cold post your own contributions instead of one-liner insults aimed at those you see as the 'liberal left'?