More than 100 schools told to close buildings over safety fears

You just couldn’t make it up, this material had a 30 yr life and was used from the 1950s onwards, they knew the risks yet did nothing.
This is serious because its roof material any wind or snow load would cause collapse, older classrooms are long overdue for replacement rather than repair, some newer buildings probably could be reinforced.

Surely the question here is poor management by the government. The shadow education secretary asked about this
problem many, many times in Parliament and nothing was done.
Where is their safeguarding in this?

CASDON and that may be the case but the programme of new and refurbished schools here show a willingness to deal with a problem and NOT just announce a new initiative that never happens as does with your government .
Similar to our affordable homes.over 120 thousand new homes in the same timescale ,over 70% of them not just affordable but social or as we call them COUNCIL houses.Thats because we have a government which is delivering on manifesto pledges and councils who dont USE their housing budget have it taken off them and given to councils who do build the right houses ....for people who need them.My area has hundreds of lovely new homes scattered across it .Dont believe the media spin about Scotland suffering under devolution ,nothing could be further from the truth

So what’s with the timing? Wait until the children are due back and then close the schools. Something on the nose there.

growstuff

The issue was discussed in the House of Lords in June.

hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2023-06-20/debates/7C03C9E8-12AC-4259-AA42-FA73FFE8DC5C/SchoolBuildingsSafety

The problem has been "under discussion" for many years

One wonders what the plan is for the 34 hospitals that are in danger of collapse that was discussed a year ago
www.theguardian.com/society/2022/aug/14/ministers-admit-hospital-buildings-england-roofs-could-collapse-any-time

Callistemon21

This has been a disaster waiting to happen since these prefab buildings were thrown up as cheaply as possible in the 1960s to 1980s.

It's amazing that many Victorian buildings are still standing although many need extensive refurbishment.

Many of the Victorian buildings are also at risk of collapse because austerity has slashed maintenance budgets and for example, hospitals were not designed to take the weight of modern equipment as well as electrical and plumbing requirements. It came up earlier this year when the government broke its promise to build 40 new hospitals
They include St Mary’s hospital in Paddington, west London, parts of which date back to 1845. Over the last year ceilings have collapsed in two wards, sewage has leaked into the pharmacy and parts of the Cambridge wing – the oldest part of the hospital – have had to be mothballed because the floor was no longer strong enough to support the clinical services there

www.theguardian.com/society/2023/may/25/broken-pledge-over-40-new-hospitals-will-leave-nhs-crumbling-ministers-told

In inspections that I have worked on, H&S maintenance checks on the fabric of the school have been carried out at a different time completely.
Local Authorities are renowned for checking one aspect at a time in many schools, eg all schools in one area have their electrics checked in the same month.

Currently it isn't the job of a H & S compliance inspector to check whether the school building is falling down or not. However my understanding is that he is supposed to check that works have been carried out satisfactorily and that a maintenance schedule is in place.

I heard on an HMI grapevine today that many secondary schools will go back to online teaching and learning, depending on the extent of repairs needed.
In very big schools it’s hugely complicated to arrange yeargroups with usual teachers so online gives better continuity.
I think Headteachers are in a shockingly difficult position and if in any doubt at all will look to safeguarding and move to online, perhaps for just certain groups.
I love the idea of a builder forming part of the inspection team assuming he was not just ticking boxes for the Local Authorities or government. Many teachers would have a long list ready for him .

Most Victorian schools have a fascinating history and are still standing proud today. In some towns they were badly damaged by bombings, but rarely razed to the ground or destroyed. There's no real point in tearing them down just to build new, but they do need to be well maintained and brought up to standard. I watched one such school have a big makeover, old red brick met modern glass structures, dank smelly cellars replaced with modern lift shafts, so that inside the building you wouldn't know the difference. Of course it cost millions and needed ingenuity and vision to succeed, but it was turned round on time and not one pupil missed a day's schooling or was inconvenienced.

paddyann54

Karmalady these are,in the main post war built schools ,PFI is another minefield altogether !

From 2011 to 2021 1053 schools in Scotland were either rebuilt or extensively refurbished.All the High schools in our area are newbuilds as are a number of primary schools/elc's.ALL manifesto pledged and delivered

The prewar schools still in good structural condition have been refurbished...ALAS this being the West of Scotland we have complaints about these beautiful new schools because ...wait for it...Catholic and Protestant pupils have to enter through the same gates!They go their seperate ways once inside the campus but this communal gate thing really has some folk foaming at the mouth. Maybe they should look south to the current situation and think how lucky we are

It’s all over the UK paddyann54. According to BBC News: Figures released to the Scottish Liberal Democrats in May suggested that a total of 37 Scottish schools had been found that used the concrete. They included nine in Dumfries and Galloway, seven in Aberdeen, six in Clackmannanshire and five in West Lothian.3

Karmalady these are,in the main post war built schools ,PFI is another minefield altogether !

From 2011 to 2021 1053 schools in Scotland were either rebuilt or extensively refurbished.All the High schools in our area are newbuilds as are a number of primary schools/elc's.ALL manifesto pledged and delivered

The prewar schools still in good structural condition have been refurbished...ALAS this being the West of Scotland we have complaints about these beautiful new schools because ...wait for it...Catholic and Protestant pupils have to enter through the same gates!They go their seperate ways once inside the campus but this communal gate thing really has some folk foaming at the mouth. Maybe they should look south to the current situation and think how lucky we are

Callistemon21

^And how does one Victorian school, one Edwardian school and One 1980s school show anything?^
😂

As you must surely realise, I gave those as examples of the contrast between the sturdiness of Victorian and Edwardian buildings compared to the flimsiness of more modern structures.

Obviously, if you wish to believe the three schools I mentioned are the only ones then that is up to you.

I thought it was more than one school which was having construction problems.

Meanwhile, children's education is being disrupted yet again after all the problems of Covid lockdowns.

www.buildingconservation.com/articles/savingschools/savingschools.htm
2007

There is no excuse.

But it doesn't "show the contrast between the sturdiness of Victorian and Edwardian buildings "etc.
.
There were actually just as many builders who cut corners in the past as there are now.

And I haven't excused anything. The issues of maintenance are the same for all schools. Not providing the money to maintain them is short term thinking, linked to the political system in the UK which means the Tories can leave the problem to the next government.

There are beautiful early Victorian buildings near me, but they look better than they really are. They have needed substantial repairs including under pinning over the years.

And I posted the information about when this government knew earlier. They were gambling on things lasting a bit longer.

Callistemon21

^If I were a parent, I wouldn't think much of maybe having to arrange a school run to a hall somewhere else in town or take time off work^

Online teaching might have worked during lockdowns wen parents could hae been working from home but now most are back in the workplace how would that work?

It could work for older, more motivated pupils, but some would do nothing - just as happened during lockdown.

Apologies for spellings.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't think much of maybe having to arrange a school run to a hall somewhere else in town or take time off work

Online teaching might have worked during lockdowns wen parents could hae been working from home but now most are back in the workplace how would that work?

Callistemon21

growstuff

The Victorian primary school my children attended was on the list which Michael Gove cancelled. My son left in 2008. Even then, it had a leaky roof and a number of the classrooms were regularly flooded and the children had to be taught in the hall after rain. The outdoor toilets were converted to indoor toilets by building a flimsy roof over a passageway. It blew off during a storm. I understand from parents of children who still attend the school that little has changed.

That is due to lack of maintenance and improvements.

Would it have been cheaper to maintain and improve such schools properly rather than build new ones which now need replacing yet again?

I don't know how a new school would have cost, but the old building wasn't really fit for purpose anyway.

I'm just sooo glad I'm not still a teacher. Most teachers I know spend the first couple of weeks of the school holidays redoing classroom displays, preparing lessons, getting class lists in order, etc. I think I'd cry (and more), if I had to adapt to online teaching at the last minute or change activities to adapt to teaching in a corridor.

If I were a parent, I wouldn't think much of maybe having to arrange a school run to a hall somewhere else in town or take time off work.

Perhaps a building survey should be included in the Ofsted .

And there is concern about Council houses built using Aero bar- like concrete. Is there a professional survey being conducted?

growstuff

The Victorian primary school my children attended was on the list which Michael Gove cancelled. My son left in 2008. Even then, it had a leaky roof and a number of the classrooms were regularly flooded and the children had to be taught in the hall after rain. The outdoor toilets were converted to indoor toilets by building a flimsy roof over a passageway. It blew off during a storm. I understand from parents of children who still attend the school that little has changed.

That is due to lack of maintenance and improvements.

Would it have been cheaper to maintain and improve such schools properly rather than build new ones which now need replacing yet again?

And how does one Victorian school, one Edwardian school and One 1980s school show anything?
😂

As you must surely realise, I gave those as examples of the contrast between the sturdiness of Victorian and Edwardian buildings compared to the flimsiness of more modern structures.

Obviously, if you wish to believe the three schools I mentioned are the only ones then that is up to you.

I thought it was more than one school which was having construction problems.

Meanwhile, children's education is being disrupted yet again after all the problems of Covid lockdowns.

www.buildingconservation.com/articles/savingschools/savingschools.htm
2007

There is no excuse.

I think this current problem is due to buildings put up between the 1950's and 1995.

It covers a lot of governments, but this latest problem has been known about since 2018.

Plenty of time for it to be sorted out.

Luckygirl3

I heard a news report that said this problem has been known about since the 1990s and the material was always known to have a limited lifespan. A bit shortsighted really.
I am glad that is being sorted now. It seems crazy that schools are bombarded with Safeguarding rules but have been operating in buildings in danger of imminent collapse. There has been so much time to sort this.

Indeed Luckygirl. Apparently succesive governments going back to Sir John Major in the 1990s (so both stripes) have been warned of the risks of RAAC, which is meant to have a lifespan of 30 years but has long exceeded that in many public buildings.

However there was little action until five years ago, when the risks became more pressing as the flat roof collapsed at Singlewell Primary in Gravesend, Kent. Just 24 hours after signs of structural stress were spotted, the roof came crashing down. Fortunately, it occurred at a weekend but the move prompted Kent council to warn other authorities over the danger.

Disgraceful lack of preparation by Keegan and DfE. Known about for years. Why no list of schools? What are the Tories doing about aerated concrete in hospitals, police stations and other public buildings? They might have done nothing on schools if the beam mentioned by Gibb hadn't collapsed unexpectedly in the summer.