Lucy Letby found guilty.

She is also a coward for refusing to appear for sentencing.

eddiecat78

In cases like this I struggle to understand if someone is evil or insane. Surely these were not the actions of a "normal" person. And does that mean she should be shown understanding and leniency? I'm not suggesting she should be - but the idea of someone actually being "evil" for no reason troubles me

She was sane enough to function in the job the rest of the time.

‘The line between good and evil runs through every human heart.’
- Solzhenitsyn

A detective who interviewed her said she was devoid of emotion.

There have always been people who act in ways that lie utterly outside the bounds of other people's comprehension. That does not make them insane.

LL knew that killing babies is murder and an action outside the bounds of the society she lived in. She knew that, and then chose to do it. There are always people who will choose to do things because they are forbidden, and the greatest forbidden act is to kill someone. We attache a special horror to killing the defenceless - like small babies, but killing is killing, whether babies, children adults or old people. Hers was a conscious choice.

I can see no alternative to a whole life tarrif prison sentence. She is not safe to be allowed to live with other people.

As for Munchausens Syndrome by proxy. This was identified by the paediatrician Sir Roy Meadow in 1977, he has since been discredited when several women served prison sentences for killing their babies when they had successive cot deaths. Meadows Law stated that "one sudden infant death is a tragedy, two is suspicious and three is murder, unless proven otherwise".

ixion

^The consultants who raised the concerns must be incandescent with anger.^

I worked with many Consultants over many years- as they were so concerned, why didn't they take further action themselves?
They are more than capable of taking on Senior Management, if needs be. And there's always their Union to fall back on.

Consultant Neonatalogists expressing concerns and yet letting more babies die, time after time?
Why?

They were threatened with being reported to the GMC for victimisation of a nurse, according to the BBC report.

Anniebach

Why would she choose to kill babies ?

Because adults or older children would be able to fight back, or notice what she was doing and be suspicious, and tell someone what was going on. A tiny baby would be helpless and unable to resist. Like all bullies, she chose her victims for their vulnerability.

ixion

I do feel very, very sorry for her parents.

Indeed. Imagine the shame if it’s really true that she did it - and even if isn’t true, the publicity and invasion of their privacy is grim.

Foxygloves

I think it is appalling that Letby, or any criminal found guilty, can somehow duck out of appearing in court for the verdict or sentencing.
I think they should face up to what they have done and face up to the sentence being imposed.

Totally agree Foxy. Raab says he’s looking into this change it back so the Court can, once again, insist on attendance by the defendant at sentencing. Letby is the 3rd defendant now to say ‘I’m not coming’. Jeez. That’s an added slap in the face for the victim’s families.

The consultants who raised the concerns must be incandescent with anger.

I worked with many Consultants over many years- as they were so concerned, why didn't they take further action themselves?
They are more than capable of taking on Senior Management, if needs be. And there's always their Union to fall back on.

Consultant Neonatalogists expressing concerns and yet letting more babies die, time after time?
Why?

Luckygirl3

I can understand management wanting to be seen to be fair, but it seems logical that if the accusation/concern involves the deliberate killing of patients then all other considerations should go out of the window and the accused should be suspended. Management are worried that they might have to pay compensation. This should not be the prime consideration.

The consultants who raised the concerns must be incandescent with anger.

It doesn’t work like that Luckygirl, there’s a pooled arrangement for compensation in the NHS, it doesn’t come from the coffers of individual NHS organisations.
Here’s the account from the BBC about the involvement of clinical managers in the cases.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66120934
As I mentioned before, cases like this are always handled through the clinical management hierarchy.

I really don’t understand all this. It said the first case was a baby that was given insulin when she was on duty. Why, if it was found that a baby had been given insulin which it obviously couldn’t have done without medical intervention wasn’t there a full scale enquiry?

I can understand management wanting to be seen to be fair, but it seems logical that if the accusation/concern involves the deliberate killing of patients then all other considerations should go out of the window and the accused should be suspended. Management are worried that they might have to pay compensation. This should not be the prime consideration.

The consultants who raised the concerns must be incandescent with anger.

I do feel very, very sorry for her parents.

A truly terrible case which has shocked us all from the minute we heard about it.

It is so wrong that she was allowed to refuse to attend court for the verdict. She should have been dragged there if necessary.
Whether or not to attend shouldn’t be an option for anyone, especially those on trial for murder.

Anniebach

Why would she choose to kill babies ?

Because she could? Why does anyone 'choose' to kill another person?

pascal30

Callistemon21

Luckygirl3

The most worrying thing for me is the length of time it took to realize something was wrong.

There is a thread about anger.

Yes, I'm angry because Consultant Paediatricians who had concerns about her were ignored by management and in fact were threatened with being reported to the GMC when they expressed those concerns. The management at the hospital defended her without a proper investigation and said she was being 'victimised'.
More babies died as a result of their deliberate inactions.
As reported on the BBC lunchtime news.

Those responsible for allowing this to continue need to be investigated and charged if found guilty of a cover-up or negligence 😡

medical staff have so little power nowadays it is both short sighted and unsafe.... When I started at a big MH hospital we had one manager when I left about 5 years later we had 6 and none of them were clinically trained.. one was an ex detective...
I think these managers should be held to account...

The neonatal unit would have had a responsible clinical director, so there would definitely have been senior medical managers involved. The direct manager for Lucy Letby was a senior nurse, and unfortunately from what I’ve read so far she was the person who ‘protected’ her because she didn’t believe she was capable of these crimes. No non clinical manager I’ve ever met would want to stop a full inquiry into a case that was of this nature, the decision rests with the professionals. From a nursing perspective it would have gone up through the professional route to the Director of Nursing. It sounds to me as if to match faith was placed in the judgment of the senior nurse.

Callistemon21

Luckygirl3

The most worrying thing for me is the length of time it took to realize something was wrong.

There is a thread about anger.

Yes, I'm angry because Consultant Paediatricians who had concerns about her were ignored by management and in fact were threatened with being reported to the GMC when they expressed those concerns. The management at the hospital defended her without a proper investigation and said she was being 'victimised'.
More babies died as a result of their deliberate inactions.
As reported on the BBC lunchtime news.

Those responsible for allowing this to continue need to be investigated and charged if found guilty of a cover-up or negligence 😡

medical staff have so little power nowadays it is both short sighted and unsafe.... When I started at a big MH hospital we had one manager when I left about 5 years later we had 6 and none of them were clinically trained.. one was an ex detective...
I think these managers should be held to account...

There must be something very strange going on in the brains of people like this. But does that make them evil or insane? I don't know.

Murderers and psychopaths don't have the words tattooed across their foreheads and may appear to live normal lives, raising no alarm bells, as in the case of Letby.

Good. Thanks Casdon

Callistemon21

Luckygirl3

The most worrying thing for me is the length of time it took to realize something was wrong.

There is a thread about anger.

Yes, I'm angry because Consultant Paediatricians who had concerns about her were ignored by management and in fact were threatened with being reported to the GMC when they expressed those concerns. The management at the hospital defended her without a proper investigation and said she was being 'victimised'.
More babies died as a result of their deliberate inactions.
As reported on the BBC lunchtime news.

Those responsible for allowing this to continue need to be investigated and charged if found guilty of a cover-up or negligence 😡

The government has confirmed there will be an independent inquiry, so that should happen.
news.sky.com/story/lucy-letby-trial-live-uks-most-prolific-baby-killer-found-guilty-of-seven-murders-12918931#6305063

Foxygloves

I think it is appalling that Letby, or any criminal found guilty, can somehow duck out of appearing in court for the verdict or sentencing.
I think they should face up to what they have done and face up to the sentence being imposed.

I think they should be handcuffed to two prison officers and frogmarched into the dock whether they like it or not.

Hopefully the law on this will be changed soon.

Luckygirl3

The most worrying thing for me is the length of time it took to realize something was wrong.

There is a thread about anger.

Yes, I'm angry because Consultant Paediatricians who had concerns about her were ignored by management and in fact were threatened with being reported to the GMC when they expressed those concerns. The management at the hospital defended her without a proper investigation and said she was being 'victimised'.
More babies died as a result of their deliberate inactions.
As reported on the BBC lunchtime news.

Those responsible for allowing this to continue need to be investigated and charged if found guilty of a cover-up or negligence 😡

Why would she choose to kill babies ?

ixion

As had Beverly Allitt, according to the judge.

www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/06/ukcrime.health

Thank you ixion . I had no recollection of the case so feel quite flattered by my “lucky guess”
I clicked your link and read this

The former nurse (Allitt) was diagnosed as suffering from Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSbP) when she carried out the attacks between 1991 and 1993.
The 39-year-old is now being held at the Rampton high-security hospital in Nottingham.
Allitt murdered the four children by injecting them with high doses of insulin
MSbP is a condition identified by the paediatrician Sir Roy Meadow in 1977, and described as a form of child abuse in which carers deliberately induce or falsely report illnesses in children to focus attention on themselves

Having read this, Grandma79 Letby’s crime seems more credible and equally horrific.