Lucy Letby found guilty.

"Some of the babies who survived have been left with lifelong disabilities."

.... and then despite being disabled, trying to get DLA to help children with disabilities, is almost impossible! My stepdaughter's baby was born 3 days after the legal abortion limit @ 1b ?oz- she didn't come out of hospital I think for nigh on a year, is LD, deaf, sight impaired, autistic and can exhibit challenging behaviours and has been refused DLA as she 'wasn't bad enough'!!

Casdon

I agree that we will never know all the facts, that is impossible, but there will be extensive notes. It’s all about preparation, whether it’s a disciplinary hearing, a fact finding, or a complaint about a service fancythat. The secret lies in asking all the right questions beforehand, so you have information about everything you might need, Lucy Letby’s trial was a court case, and the internal inquiry decision making process wasn’t part of that process because the police investigation had superseded the internal work. That isn’t to say some things weren’t disclosed, of course they were, but only those that were were relevant to the criminal investigation.

With that I’m out of this thread because I’m whistling in the wind - it’s clear that people wrongly assume I’m coming at this from a defensive angle whatever I say, because wanting more information before passing a judgment doesn’t accord with the ‘popular’ take. It’s like 12 Angry Men.

I’m quoting this but it could be any of Casdon’s contributions on this thread. I don’t see you as supporting the managers. I’m in no way defending them, they appear to have accepted a superficial enquiry that actually recommended a more thorough one to be necessary.

MadeinYorkshire, sorry to read about your daughter’s difficult diagnosis and wish her well in her determination . I’ve read nothing suggesting LL has BPD. She appears well able to control her emotions so far as the outside world is concerned. Psychiatrists concluded no treatable mh illness. No doubt we will hear more

M0nica

I find the discussion about good and evil and how disbelieving people are that LL could do what she did quite surprising.

As I write this somewhere in this country or elsewhere in the world there will be people torturing and abusing other men, women and children - and getting pleasure from it. There will be people sitting at screens watching this happen and enjoying it. In comparison with that what LL did was almost benign. The babies had a short period of pain and then it was over. They didn't live to have the torture repeated over days or weeks or years, or have people pay to gloat over their pain.

We accept that people can be born with physical disabilities, why should people not be born with disabilities of the mind, not physical disabilities, but ones that make them incapable of empathy, or emotion, or indifferent to other people?

The reason, since time began, that societies have evolved moral codes - think the Ten Commandments, is because it was recognised that there were certain types of behaviour and actions that were considered to be beyond acceptable bounds and that there were people who would have no compunction in committing them - and murder was one of them.

LL is just a run of the mill serial murderer. That she was blonde, female and a nurse, doesn't stop her being a murderer. Lots fd murderers were ostensibly kind loving people.

What you have said is interesting - I personally think that she may have a Borderline Personality Disorder, which my daughter had, and as my daughter said (when she was finally diagnosed at the age of 26, after being with MH services since the age of 9!!)

"Today I got a blessing and a curse in exactly the same moment. A blessing, because after years and years I’m finally being understood and my feelings have been validated. A curse, because it’s a life sentence diagnosis and an ugly one at that.

Borderline Personality Disorder will be with me for the rest of my life - be it long or short. It may well be what ends it. This complex psychiatric illness has no cure, and can sometimes be resistant to treatment but I am going to try my hardest to try and make life easier for me and those close to me.

I wanted to share this to help raise awareness for the illness that has haunted me for over a decade, and to fight the stigma attached to BPD and other mental illnesses.

This still doesn’t feel real."

It is very difficult to diagnose - and it WAS a curse for her, and there were times that although she wasn't 'evil', she certainly could be 'vile', yet could also be the most loving and caring person you could ever meet .... what LL wrote, has resonated with me, I have seen similar things written here. It was so bad for her - she couldn't cope when the voices were in her head telling her she wasn't worthy, and she sometimes didn't realise the awful hurtful things she had said particularly to those she loved. Living with it was so difficult that she ended her life. She always said that it wasn't fair that doctors could treat my physical pain, but wouldn't treat her emotional pain ....

As for hospital trusts, this isn't the first one that's corrupt - my local one lied to me when something happened to me; lied to another friend who went to see a consultant about her migraines - he stuck a needle in the back of her head and made it as far as the car park machine before she collapsed, went into A&E who discharged her home and the following day she has what appeared to be a stroke - but naturally it wasn't anything to do with the needle in the back of her head! Another has contributed to the death of my friend's husband and are trying to cover it up - there's no caring or wrongdoing there, they will not damage the reputation of the hospital, end of!

In the case of defenceless and vulnerable human beings, adults or babies, surely there should be at least two members of staff on duty at all times. And I agree with the poster who suggested CCTV cameras. Why worry if you have nothing to hide?

I’m not resistant maddyone, I’m just experienced in NHS fact finding situations so I don’t ever take the word of one person as the truth without question. I’m not saying anybody is lying, I’m saying we don’t know what exactly happened because we don’t have all the facts. I know nothing about this specific situation, but then neither do you

It wasn't just one person, though, Casdon, it was several experienced Consultants whose concerns were not just dismissed, but ridiculed by the managers who threatened them with consequences if they persisted.
Thank goodness they did persist or even more helpless infants could be suffering and dying today at Letby's hands.

We don't know all the facts, but the jury does (and it must have been a long, harrowing time for them all) and they found her guilty on seven counts of murder.

Some of the babies who survived have been left with lifelong disabilities.

How many more babies did she murder or leave with life-changing injuries?

After 7 unexpected deaths in Letbys care 7 consultants wanted her removed, management overruled them. How many unexpected deaths under a nurses care is explainable.

Thank you for answering all my questions. And politely.
Hope you have a good evening.

I agree that we will never know all the facts, that is impossible, but there will be extensive notes. It’s all about preparation, whether it’s a disciplinary hearing, a fact finding, or a complaint about a service fancythat. The secret lies in asking all the right questions beforehand, so you have information about everything you might need, Lucy Letby’s trial was a court case, and the internal inquiry decision making process wasn’t part of that process because the police investigation had superseded the internal work. That isn’t to say some things weren’t disclosed, of course they were, but only those that were were relevant to the criminal investigation.

With that I’m out of this thread because I’m whistling in the wind - it’s clear that people wrongly assume I’m coming at this from a defensive angle whatever I say, because wanting more information before passing a judgment doesn’t accord with the ‘popular’ take. It’s like 12 Angry Men.

And

As a couple of posters have said, some facts are known.
I will agree, definitely not all by a long way.

In your NHS fact finding experience, I assume you never knew all the facts. And I assume, balance of probability, or however these things are measured, comes into play?

Casdon
I’m not resistant maddyone, I’m just experienced in NHS fact finding situations so I don’t ever take the word of one person as the truth without question. I’m not saying anybody is lying, I’m saying we don’t know what exactly happened because we don’t have all the facts. I know nothing about this specific situation, but then neither do you.

We will never know all the facts. No one ever will.
Is it possible, even when there has been an inquiry, that you will still say "we dont know all the facts"?

Louella12

Ah well, Casdon, you say you know nothing about this situation.

I'm guessing you've not seen the numerous interviews and excerpts from this case.

Go read up on it. It might help you

I’ll try to be kind Louella. I know as much about this situation as you do. That is, what we have both seen on and in the media.

As a retired Midwife we dreaded loosing a baby but some of us did, loosing 2 would have been a very rare coincidence and I don't recall any, loosing 3 or more would have been unthinkable

Letby should have been redeployed after the 3rd, but her manager put her employment rights above the deaths of all the other babies.

There is no way that should have been allowed, 7 consultants were wanting her removed.

Ah well, Casdon, you say you know nothing about this situation.

I'm guessing you've not seen the numerous interviews and excerpts from this case.

Go read up on it. It might help you

Well corporate manslaughter is being discussed.

I find it extremely difficult to understand how anyone can defend these managers. It was appalling behaviour.

SIL, consultant, is as horrified as the majority about this. You have 4 or 5 senior consultant paediatricians telling you there's a problem and they decided to ignore their concerns. It beggars belief, it really does.

I do wonder again how the posters who are defending these managers would feel had this happened to their grandchild.

I also question if they've actually read much of the case. I'm hoping they haven't . It would explain the ignorant comments.

maddyone

We do know because one of the consultants has said that they were told that there would be‘consequences’ if they continued to bring forward their concerns about LL and if they didn’t sign the letter. We absolutely do know. Why are you so resistant? I know you work or worked for the NHS, are you in management by any chance?

I’m not resistant maddyone, I’m just experienced in NHS fact finding situations so I don’t ever take the word of one person as the truth without question. I’m not saying anybody is lying, I’m saying we don’t know what exactly happened because we don’t have all the facts. I know nothing about this specific situation, but then neither do you.

If you read all my posts you will see that I’m not standing up for anybody, I just need all the facts before passing any judgement. I do dislike the witch hunt mentality when it operates in a vacuum of information, which is what is happening here, this is a jigsaw with only some of the pieces at the moment, and drawing in what you think are the missing pieces doesn’t complete the jigsaw.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFsd4DEvu6Y

Lucy Letby - The Evidence & Cross Examination in Court

We do know because one of the consultants has said that they were told that there would be‘consequences’ if they continued to bring forward their concerns about LL and if they didn’t sign the letter. We absolutely do know. Why are you so resistant? I know you work or worked for the NHS, are you in management by any chance?

Aveline

I'm with Casdon. There were dozens of other variables potentially at play rather than just what nurse was on duty on each particular day. Things like temperature, medication variations, oxygen fluctuations etc etc etc as well as other staff also on duty. The managers would have to rule them all out before definitely fixing on LL.

Thanks Aveline, I was feeling like a voice in the wilderness, even though all I’ve been trying to do is look at the information we have about what happened objectively, and highlight what we don’t know yet. My conclusion is that most people just don’t want to hear it.

fancythat

Casdon
and wouldn’t have signed a letter if they hadn’t been convinced, by whatever methods were used, to do so,

What do you mean by that?

I mean we don’t know what information was given to them from the internal inquiry, whether they were coerced, whether threats were made of disciplinary processes for them, whether they did it to protect a colleague - or whatever other reasons there might be. I keep saying the same thing, but this is why an inquiry is needed.

I'm with Casdon. There were dozens of other variables potentially at play rather than just what nurse was on duty on each particular day. Things like temperature, medication variations, oxygen fluctuations etc etc etc as well as other staff also on duty. The managers would have to rule them all out before definitely fixing on LL.

Casdon

I’m going to say it one last time because it’s quite clear that some people just don’t hear the unpalatable truth. The managers were experienced clinical staff, who absolutely know what it is to work at the coalface of clinical care. They weren’t the faceless bureaucrats of the tabloid press’ fantasy world. They made bad decisions based on the less than concrete evidence they had, and didn’t listen when others brought forward more concerns which it was difficult to prove. They are I’m sure fully aware that they failed - but it wouldn’t have been because they were off on some jolly. They got it wrong.

Not up to them when babies are dying though. Not intelligent enough to see when she was on shift babies became ill. When she wasn't they didn't. There are no excuses for what they ignored in the face of senior medical staff raising concerns. It is up to police to ascertain suspicious deaths, look what happened in Stafford shire, when management turned a blind eye.
I wouldn't want to be in their shoes , they'll have to live with what they ignored for the rest of their lives.

Nothing more to add than what has already been said except......... well done to the doctor, who out of desperation with his own hospital and management, went to the police.

And her poor parents, they will be going through their own grieving process for their only child.

No, we don't know what the doctor must be feeling but if he is not feeling remorse and shame then he must be a robot.

Callistemon21

Casdon

maddyone

We know what the consultant paediatricians have said.
Are they lying?

I don’t think they are lying, but I don’t think they have all the information either. They understandably speak from their perspective, and wouldn’t have signed a letter if they hadn’t been convinced, by whatever methods were used, to do so, They are as keen as everybody else who understands exactly how the NHS works to make sure there is a public inquiry. I feel very sorry for the doctor who was apparently the object of her obsession, he must be going through hell.

I feel very sorry for the doctor who was apparently the object of her obsession, he must be going through hell.

He didn't discourage her attentions.

Yes.

I dont think we can assume what peoples' feelings and emotions are.
Even now. Or especially now.

People around Lucy thought she was feeling all sorts when she probably was not. Far from it.
We cant assume about other people either.

Casdon
and wouldn’t have signed a letter if they hadn’t been convinced, by whatever methods were used, to do so,

What do you mean by that?