Labour’s policy on the Trans issue

I have said over and over that if someone wants to join my knitting group (as an example) I don't care if they are male or female, and whether whatever sex they are I don't care if they wear a dress or a shirt and tie, or anything in between.

I care if a male-bodied person is in a changing room, and if they have access to Ladies' loos in public places such as bars, where they are often away from sources of help. I care if they are on rugby teams where they can hurt female players, and if they access women's sleeping areas (eg girl guides, in hospitals, and prisons). I care if they intimidate women by insisting on attending feminist meetings or meetings for lesbians, and if they push into shortlists and prizes for women - which were set up because of female disadvantage.

There are not many female spaces, and I don't think it is hypocritical to want to protect the ones that are there for safety reasons.

I don't disagree with either of you, Dd and Smileless. It just seemed to me that that was an argument that some might use.

You do make a valid point Maizie but in addition to Doodledog's post I would add that it's not the same as men competing against women in sports, where their biological physiology gives them an advantage when it comes to strength, and strength is a key factor.

I take your point, but women's groups such as I describe are single sex for safety reasons (with the possible exception of the WI). It's not the same as not allowing men into bars, or insisting on their being accompanied by a woman.

I would love to see the language de-obfuscated (if that's not a word it should be grin) and go back to knowing what someone is talking about when they use the word 'woman'. I would also love for women and girls to be able to go about their lives knowing that if somewhere has 'Ladies' on the door they will not find men in there, and it won't be up to women to deal with it. And for the very few times that women have something for themselves, such as women's shortlists, prizes for achievements, sporting entry classes, feminist meetings, Girl Guides or the WI, I would like to go back to the days when it was up to the members to decide whether to remain exclusive or not, and not to be derided or threatened for even trying to discuss it.

Problem is, Dd, that women have been battering at the door of exclusively male institutions for getting on for nearly 200 years now. 'Male' professions, the legislature, 'male' clubs, 'male' sports etc. it could be argued (not by me, I hasten to add) that women demanding a right to exclude some people on the basis of their sex is rather hypocritical.

I doubt any university applicant considers the Diversity Champion status of a university before applying for a place. Would an applicant refuse a place at a Russell Group university if it lost such a status. I very much doubt it.

Galaxy

The thing is I know its infuriating but we have to acknowledge it when people change their mind. I dont know that stating but we have been saying this for years and you watched whilst women lost their jobs and children were harmed is helpful. We have to give people a way out from the nonsense.

I agree with this.

I am cynical, yes (who wouldn't be?) but it is a start, and if Streeting is shouted down nobody else will speak up. The more the conversation develops without people shouting 'but you said. . .' the more biological reality will be seen as the default, as it was for millennia before Stonewall shook it all up.

I would love to see the language de-obfuscated (if that's not a word it should be ) and go back to knowing what someone is talking about when they use the word 'woman'. I would also love for women and girls to be able to go about their lives knowing that if somewhere has 'Ladies' on the door they will not find men in there, and it won't be up to women to deal with it. And for the very few times that women have something for themselves, such as women's shortlists, prizes for achievements, sporting entry classes, feminist meetings, Girl Guides or the WI, I would like to go back to the days when it was up to the members to decide whether to remain exclusive or not, and not to be derided or threatened for even trying to discuss it.

I would also like to be sure that children are not being encouraged to consider whether or not the body they 'are in' is the 'right one', but to learn to love the people they are, whatever sex that may be, and to be free to adopt whichever so-called 'gender' norms as they wish.

Basically, to roll the clock back a bit. Then we might be able to find a way for the very few people like the late April Ashley who have always felt that they would be happier being the opposite sex can be fully supported. I really feel for them in this situation, too.

Molly, when I said 'Tories' don't care about women, I didn't mean Tory voters, I meant the party policies. I can see how it might not read like that, but Tory voters are a mixed bag, just as Labour or Lib Dem or most other voters. Not all 'lefties' are feminists, for sure . That sort of thing doesn't work on party lines.

Whitewavemark2

Galaxy

To be fair as a politician I might have been tempted to avoid the discussion too but it was never going to work. In the end people dont like being lied to.

Oh I’m not sure about that. They’ve been lied to for 13 years.

And, seemingly many have been happy with the lies.

If I look at friends and family and colleagues, who vote Labour or Conservative or any other party, I can’t say that one group cares less about women than another, possibly because when we’re talking about female sport, female safety female rights, transgender issues in children they all have much the same point of view, from young to old. E.g. One DGD cares because she was deprived of a gold medal in swimming by a boy who said he was a girl, and who at the time, was allowed to compete as a girl.
Another person in hospital with mental health issues was obliged to be in a female ward with a TW who made it perfectly obvious he was not female , but who was not removed from the ward for fear of accusations of being transphobic.
I think the only thing the Tories have done better than the other parties is not making fatuous statements about 99% of women . . . or backing gender treatment for young people directly or indirectly.
Whether one party or their party supporters cares more about female rights, I don’t know, and I don’t have facts to support one way or another.
Everyone was being asked questions about whether they supported Stonewall, or Mermaids or is JKR transphobic or gender to try and catch them out in saying stupid things.
They all need to be clear on gender (a mindset) and sex, a biological fact and not be afraid to say that they know the difference.
Then they need to be strong enough to say that they support trans rights, but not at the expense of female rights and be clear about what that means.

Ilovecheese

By avoiding the discussion he has allowed the right wing to look as if they are the ones who care about women. They don't really but they do know how to get votes.

Sadly, I think this is the truth.

I don't for a minute think that the Tories care about women, and 'the average' Tory is probably less likely than the average' Labour voter to be tolerant of difference, but I think that Sunak is winning this battle by spin. Letting Stonewall take over to the extent that he did, then pushing Starmer into answering loaded questions about things like 'gender' has made Labour seem 'woke' on the one hand, and now 'anti-trans' on the other. It's devious, but it's clever.

Starmer is also clever, but he's played this one badly, IMO. As Galaxy says, people don't like to be lied to, and after all the daft things about cervixes, women and dinosaurs that have been said, and all the casualties like Duffield who have fallen, it won't be easy to create a new truth now.

I really hope they pull it off though, as important as this is for women and girls, it is one of a number of areas that are important to the country as a whole, and Labour gives a glimmer of hope.

The thing is I know its infuriating but we have to acknowledge it when people change their mind. I dont know that stating but we have been saying this for years and you watched whilst women lost their jobs and children were harmed is helpful. We have to give people a way out from the nonsense.

LovesBach

Keir Starmer appears to be confused about the cervix, and ticked off Rosie Duffield for saying only women can have one. I wonder where he keeps his?

Probably confusing it with the Civil cervix 🤔

Yes I agree Ilovecheese.

Keir Starmer appears to be confused about the cervix, and ticked off Rosie Duffield for saying only women can have one. I wonder where he keeps his?

By avoiding the discussion he has allowed the right wing to look as if they are the ones who care about women. They don't really but they do know how to get votes.

Oreo

DiamondLily

Starmer does seem to have wised up a little. He has, actually, said, on LBC, that a woman is an adult female, and the self ID is not the right way to go.

It's a small step forward.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-woman-adult-female-trans-labour-party/

It’s a shame that Starmer didn’t say all that some time ago tho isn’t it?

Yes, it is, although I will be voting around the economy. Nothing more.🙂

Galaxy

To be fair as a politician I might have been tempted to avoid the discussion too but it was never going to work. In the end people dont like being lied to.

Oh I’m not sure about that. They’ve been lied to for 13 years.

To be fair as a politician I might have been tempted to avoid the discussion too but it was never going to work. In the end people dont like being lied to.

DiamondLily

Starmer does seem to have wised up a little. He has, actually, said, on LBC, that a woman is an adult female, and the self ID is not the right way to go.

It's a small step forward.

www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-woman-adult-female-trans-labour-party/

It’s a shame that Starmer didn’t say all that some time ago tho isn’t it?

No, of course I don't think labour can do anything at the moment. What disapoints me is that they don't even seem to want to present an alternative to the narrative of "trickle down economics" and austerity that hasn't made anything better for most people. And that these cultural issues are getting all the attention. However, I realise I am not keeping to the point on this thread.

That is not the point, Ilovecheese. They need the votes of those who are convinced they will be profligate with "our taxes". Added to which only a minority truly believe a government can always find actual money if they want to. Most people believe something has to balance somewhere.

No it didn't come from Labour. It couldn't have done if it's happening this August. I'm sorry, I thought that was obvious. Do you expect Labour to do such things at the moment? (just interested in how you see government).

It is, although no doubt welcome, just a sticking plaster policy. Expect to see a lot of those from both sides, until the yet to be announced election is over,

They can always find the money if they want to, it is a matter of political choice.
Good news about the PIP payments, but that didn't come from Starmer.

So, lovecheese perhaps you, or others who feel as you do, can help Kier Starmer by telling us where the money would come from, because that's his difficulty.

To win an election he has to present costed policies. How would he do that?

I can offer a little cheer regarding people people with disabilities applying for benefits. In August this year there will be changes in how PIP is managed. I am not sure how great it will be and it will only apply to those over pension age and those with a severe, lifelong condition. This change will reduce the need to complete a 16 page document to a 6 page one.

Hopefully, if as I expect, we have a none Tory government, they will be able to streamline more benefits. However, to win they still need to convince voters of their probity.

What Starmer has said about this issue has received so much publicity and so much anger from supporters of trans women. I just wish there had been as much anger about their retention of the two child benefit cap.
I also wish they were as keen to make things easier for people with disabilities to apply for benefits as they are keen to make things easy to get a gender change certificate.