Oracy in state schools

varian

I think oracy means more than just being able to speak clearly and grammatically. Does it not also mean being able to think logically, muster an argument and present it convincingly?

Two of the best communicators, in my opinion, are ex-SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon and Rail Union boss Mick Lynch. Both speak clearly and grammatically and have distinctive accents which are still easy to understand. They respond to criticism without getting rattled, remaining civil even when provoked.

I agree with some of their views and disagree with others, but I do admire their ability to express their views with such clarity and without resorting to meaningless cliches and slogans.

I agree, varian on all counts. It is definitely about more than speaking clearly in whatever accent. The confidence comes from knowing that you have the vocabulary and linguistic ability to make your own case and (where necessary) see the flaws in the argument of your opponent.

Sturgeon and Lynch are great examples. Like you, I prefer the policies of one to the other, but both are excellent speakers who can command a room and make a case clearly.

It is all very well to talk about about learning how to speak, but, do you not think that the greater influence would be to teach speaking properly? It would also be much appreciated if some sort of refresher course in the English language could be provided to those people who appear on television as presenters, of whatever type .

End of Gripe

I think oracy means more than just being able to speak clearly and grammatically. Does it not also mean being able to think logically, muster an argument and present it convincingly?

Two of the best communicators, in my opinion, are ex-SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon and Rail Union boss Mick Lynch. Both speak clearly and grammatically and have distinctive accents which are still easy to understand. They respond to criticism without getting rattled, remaining civil even when provoked.

I agree with some of their views and disagree with others, but I do admire their ability to express their views with such clarity and without resorting to meaningless cliches and slogans.

Doodledog I would refer you to your post of today at 13.44.

Oops! That was a typo, sorry.

Jimmy Knapp!

Does anyone remember the Scottish trade union leader, it may have been Jimmy Reid... who would invariably be on the radio news at one o clock in times of conflict, and would let rip about the Government of the day - all I could distinguish usually was the phrase 'Management intransigence'. Great stuff !

Doodledog I would refer you to your post of today at 13.44.

Missdeke - I agree with your point about young tv presenters. Oracy has been on the school curriculum for years, so I’m not sure how these people get their jobs. Probably something to do with equality and diversity…
I agree that it’s important to be able to conduct presentations nowadays, but for some children, it’s terrifying! Recently our 6 year old grandson was expected to prepare homework to deliver a presentation on the Great Fire of London (if possible using a computer!) I’m sure there’ll be plenty of parents who wouldn’t know where to start (even if they had the time or the inclination).
On the subject of working class politicians - I’d rather listen to Angela Rayner than bumbling Boris Johnson or Victorian Jacob Rees-Mogg any day!
It’s interesting that no-one mentions Scottish politicians - I love their accents, but they’re very difficult to understand sometimes.

I said I have never been unable to understand AR .

That's awful, MIY. I think I remember you posting about it at the time, but I don't think you gave us the detail. It's good that you can remember your daughter fondly now, if not your ex.

Such an important skill. Really necessary in today's world. Speaking and Listening was a part of the curriculum when I was a teacher. Should be incorporated throughout the curriculum subjects. Too much texting and can we get rid of "like" every other word. Sure start was a great initiative. Good nursery education is a great foundation, particularly for children who come from deprived backgrounds.

Doodledog the Hansard difficulty didn't mention one particular speech - there was an article stating that she had objected to their clarifying what she had said on one occasion, and this was the point I was making - she surely wants a record of her speeches that can be read and understood in future if necessary, so why object to being asked about it, and why say you don't want to 'professionalise' government - would she prefer it to be unprofessional ? How well that would look on the world stage. Angela Rayner said herself, if you look at the Telegraph article on Google, that Hansard have a struggle with her speeches as she won't let them correct her grammar. So why is Keir Starmer bothering, indeed why should anyone bother if if it doesn't matter what you say or how you say it? This surely is not reasonable, as we all know the vagaries of the English language and how easy it is to misrepresent what you really mean. Incidentally you have twice stated that you have never been able to understand what AR is saying - I'm sure you don't mean that; said in the spirit of clarity and understanding.

FannyCornforth

MadeInYorkshire your daughter sounds lovely

Thank you *Fanny and *Maremia ...

Yes she was beautiful, loud and bubbly (the only person never to need a mic when performing!), very talented in the things she loved the most, loving, and caring; BUT the disease which got worse over time because we got little to no help (and for that I blame this Govt), could make her very unpleasant, I would go as far as to say she could be nasty, vicious, jealous and nearly always very depressed, so much so she could not bear the unending emotional pain she had - she even said that it wasn't fair that my physical pain could be treated, yet her emotional pain couldn't be. She was very difficult to live with, but unlike her father who showed up for the first time in 2 years when she died, I always stood by her, whereas he chucked her out when she was 16 I think. By that time my health had deteriorated so much that I couldn't cope with her, but as she wanted to stay at the school which supported her so much, she went to stay with some friends of mine who had horses she could and did ride whenever she liked.

When she died, I called the DWP to stop her benefit and to claim a Funeral Expenses Payment, so that I could pay for her funeral - having not been able t work for 13 years and having to exist on benefits, I had no savings at all. However, at that tie the DWP were paying me wrongly (thereby hangs another tale), and because of that, it was refused. I was so, so upset, and had to rely on her father, who was abusive to all of us, to pay for it, and boy did he make me suffer ...

Said things like “it’s not a wedding or jamboree”
- Refusing to let me have a USB copy of the funeral service, when I knew I wouldn’t be able to remember anything afterwards
- Refusing to let her best friend go to visit her in the Chapel of Rest, when we had told her not to come on the day as it wasn’t pleasant. She was devastated, and it was cruel.
- Refusing me the choice of photo on the Order of Service
- Fighting with my other daughter and I over ‘extras’ like a photo reflection to music, despite my mum offering to pay for them. We got it in the end, and he said that actually it was lovely, but when I asked him for baby photos, which he had, he actually sent one of his other daughter!! He did a Eulogy, which I could never have managed, and had it read out by the celebrant - it was a CV, and half of it was wrong - totally unemotional, he didn't know her at all. Lots of people commented on that. We crowd - funded for her wake. Afterwards when the DWP were finally paying me correctly (with the help of a lovely chap who I contacted after he was on the Martin Lewis TV Show, I appealed the decision in the hope that we would be able to get a stone to mark her grave, but even though it went to a further appeal panel, they wouldn't give in, as the 'decision at the tine of asking was correct'. Heart breaking ... sorry have hijacked the post again, but it helps to get it off my chest a little ....

It was just awful. The worst was threatening us with not getting her ashes back if we didn’t stop arguing, or as he put it “I can always adopt the ‘nuclear option’”. All the calls, emails and texts sounded as though he was speaking to a business colleague. He had no concept of being poor and trying to scrape by on disability benefits, and couldn’t believe I had no savings, and despite saying often that he was “in his 40th year of working full time, most of which has been a 40% taxpayer” and having 6 cars, he was apparently worried about securing £4k, the bare minimum cost of just the funeral. He was desperately trying to get ‘remuneration from her estate’, and my daughter and I howled laughing when we went to close her bank account, as she would have done, when we found out her estate was the grand total of £16.52! Come to think of it, I haven't had my half!

Speaking and listening should be fundamental from nursery then developed in primary schools. Nowasays it's speak speak shout with very little listening and that's from both children and adults!

LovesBach

Probably Doodledog - I'm sure that the Hansard writers are most unprofessional, and clearly just 'have it in' for AR as she is working class.

If you read my post, you will see that I didn't suggest anything of the kind.

I commented that I have never been unable to understand what AR was saying, so if the stenographers are unable to translate her speeches as they do for other MPS (ie cutting out the ums and errs and punctuating to make sense) then it may be that they need to learn to understand a broader range of accents.

I asked what it was that the stenographers had had trouble transcribing, which was a serious question. At no point did I suggest that anyone 'had it in' for AR for any reason, much less because of her background.

Yes, I think it says more about the standards, and lack of diversity, of Hansard.

Simply FYI,
ENGLISH LANGUAGE (Scottish Office)
5-14 (dated June 1991)
Listening, Talking, Reading, Writing (all given equal value)

MadeInYorkshire, that is a beautiful tribute to your daughter.

But why does addressing the problem mean that something is drastically wrong? Isn't it a good thing?

Children aren't born knowing things like rhetorical devices - they have to learn them.

If oracy is on the curriculum then something is going drastically wrong somewhere. The number of people in public speaking roles who can barely string ttwo words together in a coherent manner is growing. Hardly any of the younger tv presenters know the difference between have and of, nor the difference between v and th. I cringe daily.

With presentations being an integral part of so many workplaces these days, speaking well is a much needed skill. However I would be very interested to know if Labour Party poilicy will be equally vigorous in ensuring that the teaching of STEM subjects is given due prominence and that students are enabled to find suitable work experience before leaving school. Both need improvement and investment.

Galaxy

Incredibly shallow of me but her hair is gorgeous. I know I know I wouldnt say that about aman etc etc.

I know, I have hair 😁

Mamie

Speech and listening are skills that need to be developed from the very beginning so I hope there will also be a return to something similar to SureStart and a focus on pre-school.

Couldn't agree more, the role of health visitors in monitoring growth and development has been destroyed by stupid management decisions, children are going to school in nappies and unable to string a sentence together. Hearing and sight checks are being curtailed and clinics closed where parents and carers could get the advice they needed. HVs have become pseudo-social workers instead of the role they trained to practice. Children's health and development is slipping through the net and they are being badly let down by a fractured system.

ImogenMac: ‘I don’t think for one moment that teachers will welcome ‘new initiatives’ within the curriculum’

Neither do I, in fact Labour could have lost themselves a substantial number of teacher voters. The school curriculum has suffered over thirty years of constant change. There are far more serious problems that need addressing than changing the curriculum…..again!

My two grandsons, 9 and 5, both speak really well, encouraged by us and their parents. If anything’s grammatically wrong, we teach them the right way. We also help them extend their vocabulary, they are like little sponges! Good speaking is so important, I’m not talking about changing accents…Britain has a diverse range of wonderful accents that are a pleasure to listen to.

Not so long ago...my state school had student led assemblies, reading poetry, reading out short essays, debating society from 15, school plays, writing qnd performing comedy reviews and foreign exchanges to practice languages in France/Germany. Real confidence boosting stuff and just as important as academic study. Private schools do a lot of this and this is why their students have the edge on state educated young people now.

...and you can always 'Google' the matter.

Probably Doodledog - I'm sure that the Hansard writers are most unprofessional, and clearly just 'have it in' for AR as she is working class.

I love cheese,
I am pleased that you mentioned pushers that faced away from the person, mostly the mother, while walking. It showed no understanding that mums like to look at their offspring and talk to them. I thoroughly enjoyed it. But todays younger people seem unable to stop looking at their phones so lots of communication is lost. Sir Keir’s idea of sending young graduates into nursery schools sounds potty to me. At that stage of life grads are looking at jobs they think will fit their future career. There are plenty of older people with experience of having had their own children who are well versed in oracy who would be good at the job. WWM2 you really are a great advocate for Labour. They should pay you for your zeal alone in expressing such devotion to the cause, Most impressive.