Criminal or a Health Matter?

The woman lied, deceiving those who supplied the tablets. Why not apply sooner, will we ever know? Sadly it's herchildren who will pay the price for her actions. Even if it was a suspended sentence the publicity of her actions would be just as bad.

Germanshepherdsmum

cc

eazybee

The woman has knowingly committed a criminal offence, and that has to be recognised. I don't know the background circumstances, but feel a custodial sentence is inappropriate.

As always, where is the father?

I'm not aware that the father has been mentioned, but presumably the relationship had broken down as she had returned to live with her (previously estranged) partner.
It is a horrible crime. However she was desperate and may have put off having an abortion because she wanted the baby - if there was a way of doing it without leaving herself and her other children homeless. Who knows?
If only she could have found herself a place in a refuge or somewhere similar, but I guess that there was no reason for a refuge to take her in as she had somewhere to live and was not under threat.
You would have thought that the local authority could have housed a pregnant single parent with three children, but I don't know if she even approached anyone.

Read the judgement.

Yes, I read it. This makes it clear that she was having trouble coming to a decision, presumably leaving it so long that she could not get a legal abortion. It says nothing of why she was having trouble coming to a decision - I simply suggest that this was because it wasn't what she wanted to do. Possibly in the end she knew that continuing with the pregnancy until her partner found out she was expecting another man's baby would mean that she had no home.
I agree that what she did was to kill a viable baby and it was a truly awful and illegal thing to have done.
Others have suggested that she could have had the baby adopted, but here again her partner would have known about it and she and her children would have lost their home.

JenniferEccles

She killed her baby. I’m wholly in favour of her being severely punished.

Harsh - you have no idea what her state of mind was at the time, or what pressure she may have been under. Ironically, if she had killed a baby due to, for example, post natal depression she would never have ended up in prison.

What about the old saying of walking in someone's shoes before you judge them? There are some very harsh comments on here.
Personally I think something like this isn't done on a whim she would have to have been desperate, and, as others have said it's her children who will suffer the most.

Have you read the judgement I posted? No, thought not.

We do not know all the facts in this case, all I can think is the woman must have been desperate to do what she did, especially given she had already borne 3 children. The law is a very old one, the judge should have imposed the sentence but then suspended it. It serves nobody to put this woman in prison - she is not a threat to society, and it is also punishing her children, one of whom I believe has special needs. People commit violent crimes all the time and get away without going to prison - it seems really unfair to me, albeit typical of sentencing for women, many of whom are in prison when they should not be. Oddly enough, abortion is now decriminalised in Northern Ireland - but not the rest of the UK.

cc

eazybee

The woman has knowingly committed a criminal offence, and that has to be recognised. I don't know the background circumstances, but feel a custodial sentence is inappropriate.

As always, where is the father?

I'm not aware that the father has been mentioned, but presumably the relationship had broken down as she had returned to live with her (previously estranged) partner.
It is a horrible crime. However she was desperate and may have put off having an abortion because she wanted the baby - if there was a way of doing it without leaving herself and her other children homeless. Who knows?
If only she could have found herself a place in a refuge or somewhere similar, but I guess that there was no reason for a refuge to take her in as she had somewhere to live and was not under threat.
You would have thought that the local authority could have housed a pregnant single parent with three children, but I don't know if she even approached anyone.

Read the judgement.

Germanshepherdsmum

ordinarygirl

the woman must have been desperate
- during Covid most people had very little access to healthcare and where could she turn?
those that label this woman as a murderer have no compassion

the sentence is barbaric .

Read the judgement which I posted above.

The saddest thing about it is that she knew she was pregnant for at least three months before she took the drug, and was regularly googling how to get rid of her baby from early on in her pregnancy, so she could have sought an abortion while it was still legal.

eazybee

The woman has knowingly committed a criminal offence, and that has to be recognised. I don't know the background circumstances, but feel a custodial sentence is inappropriate.

As always, where is the father?

I'm not aware that the father has been mentioned, but presumably the relationship had broken down as she had returned to live with her (previously estranged) partner.
It is a horrible crime. However she was desperate and may have put off having an abortion because she wanted the baby - if there was a way of doing it without leaving herself and her other children homeless. Who knows?
If only she could have found herself a place in a refuge or somewhere similar, but I guess that there was no reason for a refuge to take her in as she had somewhere to live and was not under threat.
You would have thought that the local authority could have housed a pregnant single parent with three children, but I don't know if she even approached anyone.

ordinarygirl

the woman must have been desperate
- during Covid most people had very little access to healthcare and where could she turn?
those that label this woman as a murderer have no compassion

the sentence is barbaric .

Read the judgement which I posted above.

"Two wrongs never make a right" ..

The woman should not be imprisoned.

She should have NOT waited that long considering the laws of the U.K. on abortion rights; however, imprisoning a woman with three children is also a crime against humanity.

My view.

@Germanshepherdsmum, thank you for the link.
Very helpful.

So it’s a 14 month custodial sentence, then out on licence.

Certainly makes clear that ‘anything that you say may be taken down & used etc’ does mean something when it comes to Court.

the woman must have been desperate
- during Covid most people had very little access to healthcare and where could she turn?
those that label this woman as a murderer have no compassion

the sentence is barbaric .

Jackiest

Does prison ever do any good? My granddaughter was born at 30 weeks and was an idividual with rights at 2 weeks old. The thought of killing her outside the womb or inside the womb I find unthinkable and fills me with horror.

I also had a much wanted first granddaughter born prematurely at 30 weeks and am pretty horrified by this news story. However I don't know all the ins and outs and find it hard to believe that any woman would choose to kill her baby and then go through labour knowing that she would deliver a still birth.
I believe that she must have been pretty desperate to go to these lengths. Sending her to prison seems unnecessary and cruel for her children.

Tragic, but, there's no reason to have an unwanted pregnancy these days. If she didn't want another baby bit had unprotectedsex, she could have gone to a pharmacy or sexual health clinic for a morning after pill.

It is not at all uncommon for babies born at 32 weeks to live entirely normal lives with no problems. I was reading today that a baby born at 34 weeks is now considered full term. This is infanticide not abortion. I think a custodial sentence is the most appropriate punishment in this instance but she should have psychiatric treatment while in prison.

I have downloaded the full judgment. Here it is:
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/R-v.-Foster-sentencing-remarks-12.6.23.pdf

Mallin

Unless I have the same information regarding this, as the judge did…..I am unwilling to comment.

You probably can get most of the info online and in some cases the court transcripts are in the public domain unless a closed court

Unless I have the same information regarding this, as the judge did…..I am unwilling to comment.

Jannipans, it wasn't a supply company that prescribed the abortion tablets, it was a Pregnancy Advisory bureau that is there specifically to help and support women in early pregnancy. In normal circumstances, they would have requested her to attend in person so that she could be physically examined and it would have been obvious that she was in an advanced stage of pregnancy. But because she didn't contact them until May 2020, the covid lockdowns had begun and accessible healthcare was difficult, hence she was only interviewed remotely. And that's how she was able to lie to them and deceive them into believing that she was only 7 weeks pregnant. It's hardly the pregnancy Advisory Service that's at fault. The fault lies solely with the woman who knew she was pregnant in October 2019 and did nothing about it until May 2020.

Jannipans

Am I missing something here? Surely the fault lies with the person/company who supplied the drugs! (The drugs which killed the child!!!). Just because someone asks for something, it doesn't follow that they should automatically get it! I might ask my pharmacist for XYZ drug, but there is no way I would be given it without checking with my GP. The supply company should be closed down as clearly they do not have the right checks and balances in place to be allowed such a responsibility.

Different scenario but during lockdown I had repeated UTIs after my urine was tested twice and antibiotics given on the third occasion several months later I had a phone consultation and was issued antibiotics as my symptoms were identical - if I’d lied to my GP would they be at fault ??

AGAA4

Killing a baby at 32 weeks is totally wrong. She has denied that child the right to life. Abortion if it has to be done should only be carried out in the early stages of pregnancy.
A custodial sentence would just cause suffering for the children she has so I am not in favour of that but hard to know if she is freed would it set a precedent for others to do this?

I agree with this about would it set a precedent?
I worked in a termination clinic many years ago. I heard some awful sob stories about why the women and girls felt they had to terminate. It is not something I could ever have done. I have always thought until you have walked in someones shoes we don't have the right to judge.
Having said that I can recall the consultant shouting after a woman he had just seen that this was her third time and he would not treat her for a fourth, Sadly there are some women who treat termination as a form of contraception.
I feel desperately sorry for all those concerned, the aborted baby, the woman's children and the woman. Funny how the men get off Scott free!

Am I missing something here? Surely the fault lies with the person/company who supplied the drugs! (The drugs which killed the child!!!). Just because someone asks for something, it doesn't follow that they should automatically get it! I might ask my pharmacist for XYZ drug, but there is no way I would be given it without checking with my GP. The supply company should be closed down as clearly they do not have the right checks and balances in place to be allowed such a responsibility.

She must have been desperate to have done it. She must need psychiatric care not prison. I also understand that in the magistrate court the charge was different to which she pleaded not guilty. In the crown court the charge was different and she pleaded guilty. The judge passed the sentence on the grounds that she pleaded not guilty to begin with BUT the charge had changed. Surely this is not justice. Again we are judged by men who just don’t get it. I hope her lawyer appeals and gets her hope asap.

Glorianny

I think in some of your responses you’re totally missing the point, this woman probably was disturbed and upset, but it is totally incomparable to those poor women who experience miscarriages, stillbirth or are barren and unable to conceive. She knowingly had unprotected sex and then made the choice to lie and have a very late termination, I have no doubt that this experience was awful for her, but she chose this action, as a forty year old mother - her actions were deplorable