Can a woman have a penis?

Perhaps because Doodledog has claimed those of us who accept people as they present and do not query their sex, or are intersectional feminists, are not feminist at all

No. I have not 'claimed' that people who accept people as they present are not feminist. If you read my post, I clearly stated that I do this myself.

What I have stated is my belief that men should not be in women's spaces. For the reasons I also stated. I also said that IF foregrounds the needs of men, so is not, IMO, about feminism. Nothing to do with accepting of people, whether butch or otherwise.

Please do not misrepresent my posts.

That was an excellent non answer Glorianny!

It is the law which allows men to be excluded from womans spaces, if I decided that I wanted to exclude women with blue eyes from female spaces, I couldnt, it is the law which allows sex segregation in some specific cases.

I've never got anything much good to say about the Tories, but well done on this:

www.lbc.co.uk/news/single-sex-schools-reject-transgender-pupils-ignore-preferred-pronouns/

Smileless2012

No perhaps about it Glorianny as Doodledog has never claimed anything of the sort. From what I've seen from posts on GN from IF, they are the ones that appear to claim that anyone who isn't an IF, isn't a feminist, or if they are, a second class one.

The definition of rape in the UK is one that involves the use of a penis.

Judging by your posts on this topic GrannyGravy I would say without a doubt that you are a BOF.

Reality based feminism, putting female interests and protections to the forefront excellent Rosie and now we have our slogan.

Read the posts Smiless2012 she said exactly that and I quoted.

GagaJo

Mollygo

Glorianny
So you are at a meeting of intersectional women Doodledog. Say staging a protest on International Women's Day. There are a few people there who are "butch". Do you ask if they are men? Do you demand to see their genitals? Or do you behave like any normal person and accept them as women? If you do so are you then betraying feminism in some way? Because they may be transwomen.

You must live a really weird life if you think people go round asking the questions you mention.
Do you ask them? Is that why you’re so keen to know?
Do IFs announce that they are having meetings?
Why do you imagine anyone who thinks IF is simply a made up term used to avoid caring for AHF rights if they conflict with those of males would go to such a meeting?
Do IFs at their meetings go round checking what each member of the gathering actually is? Is that an IF trait?
Butch?. In a world where people dress to suit themselves in masculine or feminine apparel,
do tell me how you would define someone as butch. Are we back to earlier posters who constantly mentioned their *big, muscular, deep-voiced female friends?*

Butch and femme are key terms linked queer identification. They haven't been plucked out of nowhere. They have a long and recorded history of use in this context.

No one minds if you use masculine or feminine instead. But butch and femme are part of the discourse.

Thanks Gagajo and the point about "butch" is that women who do present like this are now being abused and targeted and told to stay out of women's spaces.
www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/it%E2%80%99s-butchappreciationday-and-what-butch-means-me#:~:text=What%20is%20butch%3F

That's the trouble with discrimination. It seldom does what it was intended to but does all sorts of other damage as well.

Marthjolly1

Yawwwwwn......

... maybe an early night is in order?

Marthjolly1

Yawwwwwn......

????????

Yawwwwwn......

Mollygo

Glorianny
So you are at a meeting of intersectional women Doodledog. Say staging a protest on International Women's Day. There are a few people there who are "butch". Do you ask if they are men? Do you demand to see their genitals? Or do you behave like any normal person and accept them as women? If you do so are you then betraying feminism in some way? Because they may be transwomen.

You must live a really weird life if you think people go round asking the questions you mention.
Do you ask them? Is that why you’re so keen to know?
Do IFs announce that they are having meetings?
Why do you imagine anyone who thinks IF is simply a made up term used to avoid caring for AHF rights if they conflict with those of males would go to such a meeting?
Do IFs at their meetings go round checking what each member of the gathering actually is? Is that an IF trait?
Butch?. In a world where people dress to suit themselves in masculine or feminine apparel,
do tell me how you would define someone as butch. Are we back to earlier posters who constantly mentioned their *big, muscular, deep-voiced female friends?*

Butch and femme are key terms linked queer identification. They haven't been plucked out of nowhere. They have a long and recorded history of use in this context.

No one minds if you use masculine or feminine instead. But butch and femme are part of the discourse.

No perhaps about it Glorianny as Doodledog has never claimed anything of the sort. From what I've seen from posts on GN from IF, they are the ones that appear to claim that anyone who isn't an IF, isn't a feminist, or if they are, a second class one.

The definition of rape in the UK is one that involves the use of a penis.

Judging by your posts on this topic GrannyGravy I would say without a doubt that you are a BOF.

Reality based feminism, putting female interests and protections to the forefront excellent Rosie and now we have our slogan.

Glorianny That's what feminism is about empowering women to take decisions not telling them what you want them to do.

Feminism surely takes its name from female, and is about the advancement of females which rather rules out males, even those who think they're 'women'.

I thought you might want to address your earlier post where you said that if a woman has an artificial penis constructed and attached to her vulva, then that is a penis and she's a woman with a penis. I thought that was a transman, and transmen are men, or is that only sometimes? I've never heard of a woman who knows she's a woman and wants to remain a woman wanting an artificial penis surgically attached.

Galaxy

I have just read quite an interesting analysis about the whole oh you want to check my genitals when women are stating their boundaries. The analysis was suggesting that there is quite a lot of aggression present in that response, women arent raped by noses or elbows they are raped by a males penis, pointing this out is actually a discussion of Male violence something which makes people uncomfortable.

That's only true for some country's legal systems. The US legally defines rape as “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim
The intention being to have assaults which involved the use of objects, or such things as fingers, classified as rape and to open it up to other assaults besides men using a penis in a vagina.

Doodledog

Galaxy

Why would it matter if there were men present at a protest.

And this is also true - I was reeling at the insults in Glorianny's post so much that I overlooked the bleeding' obvious

Perhaps because Doodledog has claimed those of us who accept people as they present and do not query their sex, or are intersectional feminists, are not feminist at all
IF is that it brings men under the umbrella of 'women's issues' which, IMO, means that it is not a feminist movement
So I simply wondered how far that went and how she would distinguish who was present or decide who could be part of any feminist event.
Personally I don't discriminate. There are feminist men, just as there are discriminatory and judgemental women, who do nothing to help or progress the position of women.

I have never by the way said I don't believe some spaces should be women only. I have said I think it is the right of the women who use those spaces to decide who should use them, and the responsibility of those who organise them to protect the women using them from abuse by anyone. It isn't the right of anyone else to dictate who should be there. The right of those women is upheld by the equalities act. That's what feminism is about empowering women to take decisions not telling them what you want them to do.

Rosie51

Great post @ 12.17 Doodledog. Respect for the boundaries of others is the mark of a 'normal person' and I like to acknowledge that as far as possible and treat people as I would like them to treat me. it really couldn't be any clearer could it? Accept there are areas where you as an individual may not go, either by law or by respecting other's boundaries.

This.

It's not complicated is it?

Smileless2012

maybe we should a 'Bleeding Obvious' feminist movement DL the BOF's.

Oh I like that, reality based feminism, putting female interests and protections to the forefront.

Lily that was brilliant!

violetsky
a/ where do you think the information on Google does and will come from?
and
b/ they won't know if I'm interesting or not until they dig me up!!

DiamondLily that made me laugh out loud, and I totally agree.

Can I join the bleedin obvious feminist movement please?

maybe we should a 'Bleeding Obvious' feminist movement DL the BOF's.

I belong to the School of the Bleeding Obvious.

If you are born with a penis, you are male.

If you are born with female genitalia you are female.

If you choose to identify/pretend to be the opposite, then fine, but just respect the spaces of the biological male or females.

I could identify as a horse, but I'm not expecting to get entered for the Derby...🙄

I have no problem if bearded Fred next door wanted to become Flo - fine, wear the dresses etc, keep your beard, present how you like.

But, I don't want bearded Fred/Flo in the next hospital bed to me flapping his penis about under his nightshirt.

Any male penis's waved about in front of me, historically, have been by my invitation only.

And, I'd like to keep it that way, thanks. As I would like to keep it that way for my DD, DGD, and DGGD.😗

Glorianny
So you are at a meeting of intersectional women Doodledog. Say staging a protest on International Women's Day. There are a few people there who are "butch". Do you ask if they are men? Do you demand to see their genitals? Or do you behave like any normal person and accept them as women? If you do so are you then betraying feminism in some way? Because they may be transwomen.

You must live a really weird life if you think people go round asking the questions you mention.
Do you ask them? Is that why you’re so keen to know?
Do IFs announce that they are having meetings?
Why do you imagine anyone who thinks IF is simply a made up term used to avoid caring for AHF rights if they conflict with those of males would go to such a meeting?
Do IFs at their meetings go round checking what each member of the gathering actually is? Is that an IF trait?
Butch?. In a world where people dress to suit themselves in masculine or feminine apparel,
do tell me how you would define someone as butch. Are we back to earlier posters who constantly mentioned their big, muscular, deep-voiced female friends?

Katek

So when archaeologists excavate our remains in 200 years they'll be able to identify those who underwent gender reassignment surgery or self identified as being differebt in some way? No, extracted DNA will identify us purely as male or female.

I don't really care what people 'identify' as - I could identify as being 5'9 instead of my teeny 5' but it doesn't make it so. Why all the labels? Why emphasise the differences if inclusivity is the desired outcome? I don't mean hide differences - but just be who you are, whatever that is and not a label. I am so very tired of a woke, metrocentric agenda being foisted on us. Who is doing this?

Archeologists aren't digging you up in 200 years, or 300 or 400 or 1000

The first reason being that if they want to learn about you they have Google and the second reason being... None of us are that interesting

Besides, most people get cremated

Rosie51

Great post @ 12.17 Doodledog. Respect for the boundaries of others is the mark of a 'normal person' and I like to acknowledge that as far as possible and treat people as I would like them to treat me. it really couldn't be any clearer could it? Accept there are areas where you as an individual may not go, either by law or by respecting other's boundaries.

Yes!

So when archaeologists excavate our remains in 200 years they'll be able to identify those who underwent gender reassignment surgery or self identified as being differebt in some way? No, extracted DNA will identify us purely as male or female.

I don't really care what people 'identify' as - I could identify as being 5'9 instead of my teeny 5' but it doesn't make it so. Why all the labels? Why emphasise the differences if inclusivity is the desired outcome? I don't mean hide differences - but just be who you are, whatever that is and not a label. I am so very tired of a woke, metrocentric agenda being foisted on us. Who is doing this?