Can a woman have a penis?

I don't twist anything

I'm very careful who I stand shoulder to shoulder with

And I don't ignore abusive behaviour from anyone, no matter where they stand on the debate

Categorically, you absolutely cannot deny that everything I point out as a problem exists on these threads

Well you can but, it's not the truth

VioletSky

The question was:

Can women have a penis?

And most people answered no, which is the answer that was wanted

But those answers are shallow because trans women exist.

Yet many on this thread who answered "no" are happy to use the words "trans women" and are forthright in saying that, they accept trans women are valid.

The problem is that those people are happy to stand shoulder to shoulder with those who say "TIM" or use more disrespectful and uncouth phrases towards trans people without ever calling it out or looking for answers and solutions. They are happy to allow any one who openly accepts trans women as trans women to be called TRA or have personal attacks used against them.

Yet.. feminists exist who agree with the issues some women have and among those feminists are trans women themselves, agreeing with you. Trans women who love women and never want any woman to be made to feel like they lose anything to them, who are horrified at the thought of making any woman afraid and live their lives in gentle unassuming ways.

Why not stand shoulder to shoulder with them? Because 100% intersectional feminists who include trans women in their numbers have your back. Do the GC really? Or are you an army they have created with leading questions, statements and holding up criminal elements who they shout make all trans women look bad.

And let's face it, hatred towards difference came first. Hatred towards LGBTQ came before the protests by trans people that they have a right to exist and live authentically. Trans women and men who marched with their LGB brothers and sisters against those who would harm them.

What side are you really on?

Read it properly perhaps?

Oh, they were always right about allowing offender who had committed offences against women into womens prisons!

*Mollygo" my opinion on providing safe spaces for minority groups is that it's up to all of us in a caring society.

Why is it wrong to expect trans women to be active in setting up refuges - it’s what we terrible gender critical women did. I’ve no doubt we would support trans women in fund raising etc. my town had two groups, set up by men, to work with and support men who were/had been domestic abusers. The groups were set up by men who had been violent to their female partners but made changes.
That’s how the first drug treatment unit in our city was started, fund raising and run by former drug users.

I do wish that the GC feminists biological realists or whatever they choose to call themselves on here would at least admit the harm they could possibly cause and the insults they have handed out to those who disagree with them.

Can I just point out that I personally don't "choose to call" myself anything. Those labels have been foisted on us. I'm not part of a group called GC, I'm not a TERF, I'm just me with my own view.

I am not critical of trans gender people. The way they choose to identify is their business, their right, their life.

I simply don't want men - whether they identify as women, or not - in spaces reserved for women in intimate settings.

Other than that, I have no view, no opinion - why should I have - on the way other people choose to live their lives, what they wear, how they look. They are simply other human beings with the same rights, the same right to respect - as anyone else.

That's not how it works though Wyllow, women who commit violent offences are placed in a female prison, men whatever their crime have no place in a womans prison.

This may be a separate thread but, the British Cycling organisation had decided trans women who were born male and went through puberty as male will not be allowed to compete against women. The decision based on the evidence that these individuals have physical advantages that make it unfair. Trans women will compete against men.
Sense at last

Yes I think most sports are realising the issues, I cant remember which country it was but a few days ago the female medal winners in a cycling race refused to stand on the podium with the man who had won.

Transwomen are not children who need other people to organise or lobby for them. They are functioning adults who can try and bring about safe spaces for themselves if they so wish, and are quite capable of asking women to help them do so if that is what they want.

Galaxy

Those administering prisons pointed out years ago that allowing males into female prisons would be a disaster. It happened anyway. I am sure everyone involved felt completely empowered.

Do we really have to go into the difficulties which were involved again? The suicides that happened to transwomen put into men's prisons really couldn't be ignored. Or do you think that they were just expendable men?
The process of accommodating transgender people is ongoing, it isn't perfect, but then little about the prison system is perfect.

Ilovecheese

Transwomen are not children who need other people to organise or lobby for them. They are functioning adults who can try and bring about safe spaces for themselves if they so wish, and are quite capable of asking women to help them do so if that is what they want.

Transpeople are a minority. The patriarchy flourishes and is built on discriminating against minorities and by granting privileges to some. Feminism seeks to support minorities to recognise that privilege exists and to offer equality to all. The idea that any minority has to provide for itself and should not be supported simply because they are adults and can fend for themselves is something that would not be said about any other minority. We recognise that disabled people need accommodating. We don't say "Oh you are adults pay for your own adaptations. We don't have to help you access anything." Or "Well we will only help you if you ask nicely"

Who says they have to ask nicely as if they are supplicants? They are adults who can articulate what they need better than anyone else. We no longer say "does he take sugar" to find out what a disabled person might need, we ask them to tell us, because they know best.

Wyllow3

Oh, they were always right about allowing offender who had committed offences against women into womens prisons!

*Mollygo" my opinion on providing safe spaces for minority groups is that it's up to all of us in a caring society.

My opinion on providing safe spaces for any groups is that one should not be at the expense of another.
I’d happily contribute, vote for, sign a petition for safe spaces for TIM suffering abuse at the hands of men who are not TIM.

Males, however they identify, should not be allowed in female safe spaces. If they really respect females, rather than just wanting their own way, they wouldn’t even expect access.

Suicide in Male prisons impacts many types of men. It is horrific and more research on say the link between head injuries and Male offending would be very beneficial, none of this means men should be placed in female prisons. Do you think the women who were assaulted because of this decision were expendable women. Pretending that men can become women has led to the difficulties you describe that needed to be ironed out.

Glorianny says . . .
Feminism seeks to support minorities to recognise that privilege exists and to offer equality to all.
At last, a post of Glorianny’s that I can agree with!
Feminists (at least those without any qualifying adjectives), can and do support minorities, though their perception of support may differ from hers.

They do recognise the existence of privilege, especially when it is being used to give excuses for removing female safe spaces and telling females they must share with males

They do want equality for all; so females have female safe spaces, males have male safe spaces and other groups have their own safe spaces.

I’m glad she mentioned the power of the patriarchy. Those TIM demanding access to female safe spaces are a good example of the demands of the patriarchy.
It’s been a great afternoon!

Slightly off track but something that puzzles me. If a man wants to become a woman, why would he want to have sex with a woman using his penis? I would have thought a man wanting to be a woman would reject the idea of having a penis as being the most obvious sign of being not being a woman.

How can those who commit rape whilst transitioning possibly be considered a woman under any circumstances.

Ilovecheese

Who says they have to ask nicely as if they are supplicants? They are adults who can articulate what they need better than anyone else. We no longer say "does he take sugar" to find out what a disabled person might need, we ask them to tell us, because they know best.

That's because disabled people handcuffed themselves to trains, or glued themselves to pavements, demonstrated and disrupted everyday life. Which many of us supported. God help them if they tried it now.
Transpeople who try are roundly condemned for it.
So are the Extinction Rebellion people.

I havent condemned protests, I think some acheive more than others. I thought the protest by the female cyclists for example was very moving and made the point beautifully.

I find Glorianny’s conflation of people with a disability and TIM distasteful.
She obviously doesn’t.

Glorianny has hit the nail square

Trans women are a minority

Should we not give to cancer research if we haven't had cancer?

Should we not donate to the homeless if we haven't been homeless?

That would be showing your privilege, saying any group is beneath your help because you have not experienced it and should look after themselves

Also it's anti feminist

Doodle

Slightly off track but something that puzzles me. If a man wants to become a woman, why would he want to have sex with a woman using his penis? I would have thought a man wanting to be a woman would reject the idea of having a penis as being the most obvious sign of being not being a woman.

How can those who commit rape whilst transitioning possibly be considered a woman under any circumstances.

It does seem a bit puzzling - but I think it's more complex than trans women just wanting to be a woman.

I'm not sure I quite understand either, but can only assume that when an individual 'identifies' with the opposite sex, he or she doesn't necessarily want to be that sex in all aspects and on a permanent basis, but to identify in some areas. And therefore wants to be free to express themselves by the way they 'feel'. In other words, it's not a fixed identity.

When you realise that femininity and masculinity varies across different cultures, you can begin to see the complexity of fixed expectations.

I don't think gender identity can actually fit neatly into any particular classification.

Glorianny

Ilovecheese

Who says they have to ask nicely as if they are supplicants? They are adults who can articulate what they need better than anyone else. We no longer say "does he take sugar" to find out what a disabled person might need, we ask them to tell us, because they know best.

That's because disabled people handcuffed themselves to trains, or glued themselves to pavements, demonstrated and disrupted everyday life. Which many of us supported. God help them if they tried it now.
Transpeople who try are roundly condemned for it.
So are the Extinction Rebellion people.

Wooah...I'm part of that disabled community. Yes, some did the more radical stuff, that's true. But the rest of us just quietly campaigned for certain things - disabled loos, lifts in railway stations, accessible transport, accessible shops etc.

None of that impacted on the able bodied. Nothing. In fact, a lot of this helped the able bodied.

So, please don't compare that to this trans stuff - nothing similar.

Doodle

Slightly off track but something that puzzles me. If a man wants to become a woman, why would he want to have sex with a woman using his penis? I would have thought a man wanting to be a woman would reject the idea of having a penis as being the most obvious sign of being not being a woman.

How can those who commit rape whilst transitioning possibly be considered a woman under any circumstances.

I agree, Doodle. I don't understand how a heterosexual man who fancies women and keeps his penis intact can claim to be a lesbian.

If such a person forms a relationship with a woman who is happy with whatever arrangements they come to, then good luck to them. 'For every pot there's a lid' and all that. It's when they think that anyone who doesn't fancy it (ie a straight woman who wants to be with a male-presenting man, or a lesbian who wants to be with another woman) is phobic that I lose sympathy, particularly when they threaten violence.

Women often have sex with women using a penis

Sometimes battery operated

VioletSky

Women often have sex with women using a penis

Sometimes battery operated

No the correct name is a sex toy, or dildo not a penis